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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4283 Members Latest Member: - otto Most online today: 56 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
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Author Topic: Br. Phillip's confession....  (Read 1368 times)
jason-x
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« on: August 01, 2005, 07:46:52 PM »

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Eero Tuovinen
Acts of Evil Playtesters
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2005, 11:54:44 PM »

Let me again say that I know exactly what kind of session you had, because I've played sessions exactly like that. It's like, man, what's that player thinking his actions make no sense at all now he's already drawing his gun and it seems like he's caring not one whit about all these characters. Well, as I see it, you either have to give his contribution credence or not. Either you go
1) OK, this'll clearly be a story of me dealing with a psychopathic Dog and how that'll break down the system of justice and faith we have here. Will justice win over violence, can I make him hear me?
or
2) Hey, this isn't the story I subscribed for! Get me out of here!

I don't claim that it's easy to get into it when you're expecting a rather different kind of game. My point is that it's rather too early to say that the situation is untenable just because a character is going batshit over the mountain people. If it were a NPC, most roleplayers would take it in stride, I guess. A challenge to the moral fabric of the town and all that. Takes a calm mind to do that when it's a player and everyone else's thinking that he's just not getting it and clearly we'd have to get him to play it right but nobody has the words to make him understand.

Now, I fully understand and accept that taking it in stride isn't going to work in the long run, because it won't result in an interesting and dramatic game. The reason for that is that if the player is really just out to "win", then his decisions will drama-wise always end up the same, and his contributions to the story and imaginary detail will not necessarily be interesting. However, that's something you see by playing through a couple or three moral scenarios with him, tightening the situations, and seeing if he's at all interested in the moral dilemmas. If nothing seems to grab him, then it's pretty safe to say that he's just playing to "win". But for all we know, it just might be that this scenario just happened to look like morally cut-and-dried to the problem player. It might be that it looked like that because he's not yet attuned to looking at it from the story perspective. The way to correct these things is to give credence, not take it away, so that the player can really reflect on his actions. Take him seriously, and he starts to take himself seriously.

That's the one thing I've learned about GMing violent, player-initiated narrativism in playing Dust Devils over and over again. If there's a player who thinks it's a good idea to off the sheriff just because he finally can and the GM seems to not care and he tries to go for the grand slam by robbing the bank as well (real game a couple of months ago), the way to deal with it is to give his contributions credence, to let his decisions matter, and to fully play out the consequences. Because up to the point of those consequences, all you've proved to the player in question is that he can do all that barbaric stuff you'd do in a teenage rampage game. When you get to the consequences and do not flinch, whether the shit's falling on the character or some NPCs, then the player has the opportunity to care. Up to that point you haven't really even given the player a chance. That's why I think that it's important to get in, not back away, when other players surprise you. Respect their contributions and make your own spins off them. If you're playing a single character, express your dismay through the character's actions. That way you take the contribution of the other player seriously.

So, Jason: what I'm getting from your post is that you're entirely unappreciative of Ravi's contribution to the game. That's cool. His actions were "irrational, unwarranted, uninteresting and beyond your control". That happens. It's even possible that you're creatively incompatible. The risk in giving players real control over a game is that another player doesn't dig what a player does with that control. DiV chooses to subsume creative differences into the game and make them in-game conflicts. Other games, like Universalis, has players saying it straight to each other when they don't like their decisions, and you can just stop the other player from acting by sacrificing your own resources without all the in-game rigamarole. Perhaps that'd be more suitable for you?

For the record, I don't believe for one instant that you can "game" Dogs in the Vineyard to get an impossible advantage in dice over another player character in one session, assuming somebody isn't cheating. And two dogs will run over one anytime as far as I know. So I don't really see how one player can be any more of a force of nature than any other, except if the player is much more certain about his goals than the other players.
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Adam Dray
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2005, 10:20:34 AM »

Jason meant to post this as a reply here. Probably should keep discussion over there.
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Adam Dray / adam@legendary.org
Verge -- cyberpunk role-playing on the brink
FoundryMUSH - indie chat and play at foundry.legendary.org 7777
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