Conflict Resolution, especially whether Traits and Things can be invoked en-mass

[NickHollingsworth]

The way I read the resolution mechanics in the rules it says:

(1) The initial dice are only for Stats and Relationships, not for Traits or Things (p34-35)

(2) On a given Raise or See you can invoke any number of Traits and/or Things, but no Stats and Relationships (p35)

(3) You can invoke some Traits and/or Things on your See and invoke more on your Raise if you want.

(4) When you escalate you get the additional Stats. You can also invoke any number of Traits and/or Things at the same time.

(5) You also get the extra dice if your opponent escalates.

(6) You cant get the dice from a given Stat, Relationship, Trait or Thing twice in the same conflict.(p37)

Is that right?

I ask specifically because I had assumed that it would be one Trait or Belonging per Raise or See. It was only after reading play examples that I noticed that several traits and or belongings were being invoked at a time. On re-reading the rules I found I had made an incorrect assumption.

Having played HeroQuest for an inordinately long time now I have become quite frustrated by the pressure on players to scan the character sheet and ask to augment with every ability that is even a vague possibility. (a) It slows down resolution and (b) you end up with things being invoked without any feel that they are appearing in the narrative in any meaningful way - which I think is wrong.

I had anticipated that the back and forth nature of Dogs resolution would be a great way of rectifying this behaviour, by forcing players to take 'abilities' one at a time and narrate their relevance and effect on the conflict.

I know that narration must justify use and could technically justify quite a few things. But taking that as given, do GMs tend to let loads of Traits and belongings in all at once with a name check, or do they tend to accept them one at a time?

[Darren Hill]

(2) On a given Raise or See you can invoke any number of Traits and/or Things, but no Stats and Relationships (p35)

Is this right? I was under the assumption you could only use one Trait, and whatever Belongings where appropriate to the use of that Trait.
The text says "Use one of your Traits to Raise or See and you get to roll its dice."
This is explicitly not the same as "Say what you do to Raise, and use that to justify however many Traits you can."

(4) When you escalate you get the additional Stats. You can also invoke any number of Traits and/or Things at the same time.

Note that escalation is something you do as part of a Raise or See; saying you can invoke traits or things at the same time is redundant.

I ask specifically because I had assumed that it would be one Trait or Belonging per Raise or See. It was only after reading play examples that I noticed that several traits and or belongings were being invoked at a time. On re-reading the rules I found I had made an incorrect assumption.

Is it the case that you've seen a Trait and a Belonging used together, and have assumed that allows use of multiple Traits? Or are their examples of multiple Traits in one Raise or See?

[lumpley]

I raise with "I punch my brother in the nose!" I have on my character sheet "I'm awesome at punching 1d8" and "my brother deserves pain 3d4."

Yeah, I get all those dice. It's nothing to worry about.

As GM, you don't get to unilaterally yay or nay peoples' dice anyway. The group does, and you should follow the group's lead, and you should really not worry about it unless someone's not having fun.

If you feel like worrying about something, the thing to worry about is that the raise a) is conceivably movement toward the character winning the stakes, and b) is something the character's opponent can't ignore. If someone's reaching awkwardly for traits, that's how it'll manifest: as a raise that's not toward the stakes, or as a raise that you can ignore. Ask for justification that the raise counts, not that the traits do. (Every player can ask and should, to his or her own comfort.)

Seriously. If you've got good raises, the dice will be fine whatever they are.

-Vincent

[Darren Hill]

That's me wrong again, then :)

I can see how it really doesn't matter in the long term. If they don't get the dice for both traits on this raise, they can certainly get them over the next two raises if they want them.
It makes a slight difference in the dice values available for your raise on that first action, but that's not likely to be a big issue.

[NickHollingsworth]

Am I correct in surmising that despite what it says about Relationships only being invoked at the start they can actually be invoked at any point as long as the conditions are now met?

Eg for a relationship to a given Sin it becomes relevant at the moment the sin is commited, or found to have been commited, or is about to be commited by someone in the contest. So that at the moment that the unfolding narrative establishes that, then the relevant party could invoke the dice for their relationship to that sin? Well on their next See anyway.

[lumpley]

Wait wait wait, I'm all wrong. Here's the game text:

Because rolling your character's relationship depends on who your character's opponent is and what's at stake, you'll roll them at the beginning of the conflict, with your Stats.

And here:

First, say what's at stake.
Second, set the stage and the opening arena.
Third, roll Stat dice, depending on the opening arena...
Fourth, roll Relationship dice if they apply...
Fifth, take turns Raising...

Roll your relationships only at the beginning of the conflict.

I wrote this first, but ignore it:

Here's the game text:

With a Sin: A relationship with a sin contributes its dice to your side of a conflict when a) your character has committed the sin and it's relevant to the conflict, b) your character's resisted committing the sin and it's relevant to the conflict, c) what's at stake is someone's commission of the sin - your character's, your opponent's, or someone else's.

So, with a sin, yeah, I guess so, if your character's commission of the sin or resistance to the sin somehow becomes relevant mid-conflict. (Notice, not anyone else's.) That's an exception: relationship dice apply generally for stakes and opposition, neither of which can change mid-conflict.

I was wrong! No exception for relationships with sins.

-Vincent

[James Holloway]

Now, you can bring in  a relationship in mid-conflict if it's a new relationship you decided to spend dice on, right? Like on p. 42?

[lumpley]

Yes!

I almost edited my post again to point that out, but I knew someone else would bring it up.

-Vincent

[NickHollingsworth]

Ok. No relations in mid contest!

Can you explain why this is an important rule. Given the freedom to invoke hods of Belongings and Traits, what is it about the mechanics that makes it important that Relationships be invokable only at the start.

[lumpley]

It's to maintain the pressure to escalate. Relationships, unlike most belongings and many traits, are more easily available for inclusion in "just talking" raises and sees.

-Vincent

[NickHollingsworth]

OK, thank you. I am satisfied with the answers.