[dungeonkind] Otherkind meets my breaking heart...

[Kesher]

This game was written as a tangent while in the course of working on another much larger and more complicated game, which uses Vincent Baker's lovely Otherkind rules (http://www.septemberquestion.org/lumpley/other.html) as its core mechanic.  It came upon me suddenly, and I hacked it out in a day or two.  It also uses the Otherkind system as its core, and I apologize in advance to Vincent, but I guess I used it to write my Fantasy Heartbreaker!  It's meant to utilize ANY AND ALL tropes from Dungeons & Dragons; any edition or supplement is fair game.  Stealstealsteal!   

It's still in pretty rough form, and I haven't been able to playtest it; I kept thinking I would before I posted it here, but I'm sick o' waiting.  I'd certainly love to hear about it if anyone uses it.

dungeonkind

HOW THE GODS HATH BUILDED THEE

GRIT
Grit represents adventuring savvy (thinking outside the box.)  You start with 2 pts & gain 1 pt. / lvl. from thereon.  It refreshes after each adventure.

THREAT
Threat is an abstract number representing the danger-lvl of a foe or group of foes.  It's applied by the DM against the number rolled on dice placed by you in either or both of the Motion & Hit Point conflict categories.  A given foe does NOT need to be assigned a threat rating.  However, when assigning threat, it's important to remember that a threat of 10 can negate sixes placed in both of the above categories, placing the character in a bad place without the help of grit or magic.


LET LOOSE THE DOGS OF WAR
You need four dice (all the same color) and four dice of different colors.  The same-colored dice are called your Basic dice, and the other four are your Color dice.

BASIC DICE
When you roll your Basic Dice, you place them in the following four categories; which numbers you place in which categories is completely up to you.  It's desirable, results-wise, to roll high.

NARRATION
If you assign a 4-6 in this category, you get to narrate what ultimately happens in the conflict.  Putting a 1-3 here lets the  DM describe what happens.

MOTION (this needs a different name, maybe Drive, or Action?)
Assigning a 5-6 in this category means you move decisively towards your goal.  With a 3-4 your progress towards your goal is misdirected, blocked or uncertain.  Placing a 1-2 here means you actually lose ground.

HIT DICE
By placing a 5-6 in this category, you ensure that your current enemies are killed or maimed.  On a 3-4, you hurt and disable them, possibly killing some.  If you assign a 1-2 here, you don't significantly hurt your foes at all.

HIT POINTS
If you assign a 5-6 to Hit Points, then you're not significantly hurt.  Placing a 3-4 here means you're wounded, but not badly.  On a 1-2, you're hurt badly, maybe even critically.

NON-LETHAL CONFLICT
Roll only 3 Basic Dice, not putting anything in the Hit Dice category.

COLOR DICE
Color dice are what you use to bring out your unique mix of qualities in pursuit of whatever it is you're SEEKING.  Whenever an ability related to a color die comes into play, simply roll it along with your Basic Dice; if the color die is higher than one of the BD, replace it with the color dice and be sure the use of the ability in question is included in any narration of events.

  Assign one color die to each of the following:
   * Your class (fighter, thief, etc.  If you're not human, your particular race (elf, dwarf, whatever) counts as your class.)
   * Two abilites
   * Save your fourth color die.  This is your Luck die.  It can be used as a wild-card resource once during any adventure.

Each type (general class) of character receives a color die when they do something related to their class.  So does each race; a race other than human counts as a class.

Each char also lists two abilities/skills they possess; one should relate to a specific weapon; after all, what's an adventurer without their favorite weapon? (except for magic-users and clerics, who should choose "spells" and "prayers", respectively).  The other should be outside of the realm of ANY class, which will grant them a color die in a relevant conflict.  This other ability is meant to make your character more interesting; not necessarily more powerful...  Characters will likely gain abilities as time (& levels) go by.


MY SHIELD IS BENT AND OH SO HEAVY
Wearing armor protects you from threat points levied against your Hit Points die.  Light armor gives one point of protection; medium armor, two; and heavy armor gives three points.

MAGIC RUNS THROUGH THIS STEEL LIKE BLOOD
The plusses associated with magic weapons and armor (+1 sword, +3 chainmail, etc.) simply reduce the threat ratings of your foes.  Armor just continues the reduction started by the type of armor.  The chainmail mentioned in the example above would reduce the threat leveled at your HP by 5 (two for being medium armor, three for the magical "plus".)  Magic weapons directly use their plusses to reduce threat.


TIME HAD CARVED DEEP CANYONS IN HIS BROW
The amount needed to advance a level is equal to your current level +1 (i.e., if you are 3rd level, you'll need 4 xp to advance.)

XP are gained through several different avenues:
   * XP = to the threat score - character lvl for any foe(s) defeated through the char's main mode of action (fighting for a fighter, magic for a magic-user, etc.)  Depending on the type of char & the circumstances, "defeating" a foe might mean avoiding them entirely.  If a non-primary mode of defeat is used, only half the XP are gained.
   * XP = to half of any grit points used during an adventure.
   * XP = to one point for progress towards whatever the character is SEEKING.

OH GRIM DEATH
There will come a point in your adventuring life where you will be forced to place a 1-2 in the HP category, leaving you critically wounded or perhaps dead.  All is not lost, though, depending on what you're willing to give up...

If you are seriously wounded, you can choose to pass out, die, or begin a new conflict.  If you pass out, you won't be killed (though you may be captured, etc.)  If you begin a new conflict and once again are forced to place a 1-2 in HP, you can survive by passing out and  burning all of your grit points for the rest of the adventure.  If you're forced into this position a third time in the same adventure,  you can survive by passing out & gaining a semi-permanent wound that gives you a -3 to any die number placed in either HP or or HD; be sure whoever narrates the outcome explains what physical consequence the penalty is a result of.  It will, of course, require a powerful healing spell to restore you, cast by a powerful cleric, who will need you to perform a task for her...  Such is the life of the adventurer.

OF WHAT KIN ARE YE?
Theoretically, you could be an adventu rer of any race in the DnD universe; stories are full of solitary beings who have gone against all the stereotypes of their kind to find whatever it was they were seeking.  Just work it out with the other players.  Whatever sort of things  you decide a member of that particular race can do, that's what you use your Class Color Die for.

THEY ARE WISE IN LORE THOUGH YOUNG OF FACE
Elves are well-known to be associated with the casting of spells.  They gain spells at proportionately the same rate as human magic-users; however, instead of increasing the number of spells they know every level, they increase every *other* level.  Most advernturing elves are going to be far too young to be anywhere near as proficient at the casting of spells as their human companions.  However, they can ignore the human wizard need to focus purely on spellcasting at the expense of self-defense... 

WHAT IS IT YOU  SEEK IN THE WIDE & LONELY WORLD
Adventurers, by the nature of their chosen path, stand outside of "normal" society.  They may band together for security, or out of friendship, but in their heart of hearts, they seek for something in the course of their adventuring, something that has driven them to the fringes of the world.  All desire an OBJECT for some PURPOSE.  It may be gold to build a temple; it may be the perfect foe to challenge their skill; it may be a fabled artifact that will bring them power.  Whatever it is you seek, the thought of it is always with you.  It drives you ever forward into danger.  Rest assured, it will not be found easily...

(I'm not sure about this last bit.  I included it to try and capture a bit of a houserule thing I used to do years ago, flailing around towards having characters that mattered to the players)


------------------------
Here are my uncertainties:

I'm toying with the idea that any time you use the score from a color die, you need to ensure that you place a 3-5 in Narration...  This is simply a rather bald tactic to encourage Narration choice by players.

I'm also considering allowing threat to be applied to the HD category as well--- this would, I think, allow for more subtlety...  a DM could then use Threat to reduce damage done to a foe.

If I use the stuff about OBJECTS and PURPOSE, I'd like to connect it directly to character resources.  I'm just not sure what this resource should be, ideally.

Any other ideas, or major tropes I may have missed?

Thanks,

Aaron

As an aside, if you're interested in seeing how my presentation of these rules, while in the grip of nostalgia, was given puzzled looks and polite rejection by a group of otherwise eager teenage gamers (we ended up playing Tunnels & Trolls; in fact, in three weeks, we'll start playing it again!), as well as some interesting follow-up discussion, look here: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=15453.0

[Larry L.]

Aaron! This is how you squander valuable time we could be using for Tunnels & Trolls?

Well, okay. Actually, your colorful topic heading have pretty much sold me. Just get Jeff Dee to illustrate and you'll be just fine.

[Kesher]

Jeebus, Larry, why don't you just beat me with a spiked board!  For your info, I wrote this BEFORE I even picked up T&T again, you twink.  Plus, I'm workin' out some issues wit' this thing... and then you had to go spring an actual damn PICTURE of Jeff Dee on me!

Any comments about the game itself???


Aaron

[Clinton R. Nixon]

I have a comment.

AWESOME.

I wish I had more to say, but, man. Your titles are amazing color, and I already loved the Otherkind mechanics.

[Josh Roby]

I love the WHAT IS IT YOU  SEEK IN THE WIDE & LONELY WORLD part -- I've always wanted to see a game that actually recognizes that "the heroes" are not just a cut above the rest, but also excluded and isolated from the civilized world.  You should take this piece and run with it.

[Alex Johnson]

Wow, Kesher.  I glanced at Otherkind before and dismissed it.  The setting was such a turnoff to me that I didn't absorb the mechanics.  After reading your writeup I'm shocked and delighted.  Otherkind has some really good mechanics for a narrative game.  Some ideas I hadn't thought of or seen before.  And somehow you tagged it and made it D&D-friendly.

Plus the one-page writeup goes so well with the three-page Otherkind game.  No spoiling the pure and simple here!

[Kesher]

Thanks for the kind words, gentlemen!

Clinton: Yeah, those titles started flowing as I was originally typing it up a few months ago.  I think I'm gonna try and work them in a bit more comprehensively.

Josh: I agree about the isolation bit; it's part of the reason I like "fantasy adventure" so much, I think.  You're the guy who isn't bound by the rules, but to stay alive in the strange and brutal wasteland, you must have something driving you...  It was in my thoughts to move that more to the center of things.

Alex: Yeah, man, Otherkind rocks.  I actually like the setting (what there is of it) myself.  It was a bit of a challenge to adapt it to DnD tropes, since in Otherkind, killing things turns you into a monster! (more or less)  Vincent's core mechanic is brilliant, I think.  It opened my eyes to a whole different kind of game.

Aaron

[Larry L.]

No, seriously Aaron, I've got a knife in one hand, a fork in the other, and a napkin tucked into my collar. We should playtest this if you can shoehorn it into your schedule.

Ditto on WHAT IS IT YOU SEEK IN THE WIDE & LONELY WORLD. I've actually been mulling over some fantasy heartbreaker stuff lately (maybe on account of THAC0). I've kinda got my own little scheme of "why you adventure" (instead of staying home and being a good vassal) for each class, extrapolated from some of the curious bits about early versions of Dungeons & Dragons. I don't know that I've got a full heartbreaker worth of stuff here, but if you're interested I could post it here and you could mine it.

[Landon Darkwood]

Is it possible for this "disconnection from society" thing to take on a shape similar to the "connection to life" rules from Otherkind? A mechanic could be derived that uses your reason for isolation as a tension point between what you're seeking and what you're leaving behind. The closer you get to one, the less you can relate to the other. I don't know exactly how this would be done, because I've only ever read Otherkind and not actually run it, but I wanted to post the idea in case inspiration could strike as a result.

It kind of goes hand in hand with that notion of "retiring heroes", though... the old blacksmith who was once an adventurer but decided that the stability of home was more important than, you know, whatever he was out there for in the first place. It'd be an interesting way to add kind of an "endgame" component to a campaign -- some heroes will give up society completely and find what they seek. Some will give up their seeking and become happy shop owners. Some may find neither.

I don't know if you really want to go in this direction with the game, but it sounds like Larry's ideas could dovetail nicely with that.


-Landon Darkwood

[Josh Roby]

What about the heroes whose goal is to -- for instance -- retrieve the Orb of Power that will shatter the Iron Fist of the Lich-King's rule?  If they 'go all the way' and get the Orb of Power, defeat that pesky Lich King, and restore the 'rightful' order of things, don't they get to retire?  In other words, I don't see these in utter and lasting opposition.  Although really, resolving the dichotomy between the two wouldn't be a bad goal, either.

[Landon Darkwood]

Well, that is a good question... do they get to retire? Can someone who goes through an experience like that really live among "normal" people like the storybooks say? I mean, especially in most DnD settings, it's kind of like this -- heroes are generally viewed in one of four ways, I think, if not all four simultaneously:

1.) completely crazy for exposing themselves to so much risk on a normal basis
2.) valiant and worthy of reverence from a safe distance
3.) intimidating and worthy of fear
4.) an expendable economic resource

The key thing to note is that none of these views have anything to do with relating to the adventurers as human beings. Who does an adventurer talk to about the travails of hunting the Orb of Power when most people would look askance and say, "Why seek it, then?" Who really understands those motivations? Is the guy who believes himself capable of removing the Lich-King from power really a guy you want as a neighbor or chess buddy, if all you've done with your life is turn in a mediocre harvest every year? Who do the extraordinary relate to when they're alone at night?

So, does the commitment to 'go all the way' for goals of global impact fundamentally separate you from the rest of society? I think so, yes. Sure, they may appreciate it later, but in the meantime, the mayor of Riverford still wants his 500 gold for the property damage to his inn after your squabble with the Lich-King's minions wrecked it. He could no more understand your quest than you could understand his priorities regarding property over the lives of his citizens. He has no way of knowing whether or not you'll just take the Lich-King's place.

And ultimately, if you don't get the Orb of Power, isn't the countryside full of eager young swordsmen who just might? Does the world really need you to save it after all?

Yeah... lots of good questions that can come out of a decent mechanic that has your quest on one side and that nice, peaceful life with a wife, two kids, and nine oxen on the other. It's not just a matter of fulfilling the quest so that society will accept you back again, it's a matter of being the kind of person who could go back to it after such an ordeal. Sure, the Lich-King's gone, but at what cost to you?

So, back to something relevant to the thread: is there room for something like this in dungeonkind as it develops? How would you do such a mechanic in this system? Would this be an interesting direction for the game?


-Landon

[Larry L.]

Well, that is a good question... do they get to retire? Can someone who goes through an experience like that really live among "normal" people like the storybooks say?

Well, if you subscribe to Joseph Campbell, the Return is part of the monomyth. But, yeah, this never seems to come up as a D&D trope. Traditionally, some position of leadership is conferred upon the characters, who attract followers and what not. Implying you kind of walk away from it all and like-minded individuals form society around you.

[Josh Roby]

Sounds like a good implementation, Landon.

Otherkind has you describe how you will be celebrated when you're done (I will be toasted by my peers for a full seven days and nights).  Perhaps dungeonkind could also allow the players to dictate how each scenario brings them closer to their goal?  Something like "Having slain the dragon at the bottom of the sunken temple of ruination, I am able to recover the Tome of Worry, which describes how to kill the Lich-King's guardians."  If the players generate this without regard to the GM's 'plans', they can quite seamlessly knit up a string of 'disparate' quests as if they were one unified goal.

[Kesher]

Whoo-ee, y'all been rollin'!

I just got back from GenCon, boys, but while there I worked on exactly some of the stuff you've been talking about.  I'll respond in more depth tonight or tomorrow, once I unpack and, y'know, spend time with my wife and kid :-)

Larry, I'm flattered you'd like to eat the game; puh-leeze post yer ideas!

Aaron

[Kesher]

Perhaps dungeonkind could also allow the players to dictate how each scenario brings them closer to their goal?  Something like "Having slain the dragon at the bottom of the sunken temple of ruination, I am able to recover the Tome of Worry, which describes how to kill the Lich-King's guardians."  If the players generate this without regard to the GM's 'plans', they can quite seamlessly knit up a string of 'disparate' quests as if they were one unified goal.

It kind of goes hand in hand with that notion of "retiring heroes", though... the old blacksmith who was once an adventurer but decided that the stability of home was more important than, you know, whatever he was out there for in the first place. It'd be an interesting way to add kind of an "endgame" component to a campaign -- some heroes will give up society completely and find what they seek. Some will give up their seeking and become happy shop owners. Some may find neither.

Josh and Landon, these are excellent suggestions and I've been thinking along exactly the same lines.  Something like this, in fact (from hastily scribbled notes):

THE BEAST THAT GNAWS ON MY HEART
SEEKING is at the core; it drives the characters to become adventurers.  Everyone is seeking something-- those who become adventurers just have larger, more passionate goals, things that fall outside the purview of "everyday" life.  However, this means that rarely will anyone give anything to the characters without at least trying to get closer to their goal in the process.

THE BEAST THAT GNAWS has (x number of) stages of satisfaction (either standard for all or set individually (randomly?) at the beginning of the game).  Each stage gives more power (resources, probably allocatable dice) to the character, centered in new Abilities or in the use of particular Items, though perhaps a more global BEAST pool could be created, showing determination gained by slowly finding what they are SEEKING.  When the BEAST has been fully sated (all stages completed), the character is retired from active play (though in the best tradition of DnD tropes, they should occasionally reappear as an NPC...)
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Going back to Landon's idea, it's interesting to speculate on what would happen to an adventurer if the BEAST consumed them; my point being that the "blacksmith who gave up adventuring" always seemed like a failure to me.  Whereas the "innkeeper who was a retired adventurer" usually struck me as a successful adventurer who'd gotten what they were looking for and then given up that life.  I think it'd be cool to build the possibility of failure, connected to specific player choices, into the system.  I'm just not sure how to do it.  Well, of course DEATH is one possibility, especially since players are the only ones who can decide that their adventurer has actually died.

On a minor note, in order to give more room to ANY DnD trope, I'm going to drop the "race=class" equation and divide the four Color Dice thusly:

1. Your class
2. Your race (if not human); if human, an Ability
3. An ability
4. Luck


Aaron