[D20 Arcana Evolved] How do I improve my reward cycle

[James_Nostack]

Frank, I realize the discussion has moved pretty far afield, but I was wondering if you'd checked out my Arcana Evolved (well, actually Arcana Unearthed) to TSOY adaptation.  Admittedly it's unfinished, but I think it manages to hit a few of the thematic bases, and there are some Species Keys that might work for you--

http://random.average-bear.com/TSOY/LandOfTheDiamondThrone

I have most of the notes I need to finish it--info on adapting the main cultures and so on--but I haven't had a chance to really sit down and type 'em up.  Please note that if your gang are Arcana Unearthed purists I've taken some liberties.

[ffilz]

Chis, I'll have to think about that. You're sort of suggesting rewarding Nar play, which might be incoherent and might smack of sneaking up on mode, but maybe I'm misreading. I actually prefer the smaller numbers of XP (D20 really could have divided by 100, certainly by 10. Giving someone 10 XP when you need 100 is almost meaningless). I also actually like the steady progression of advancement. D&D used to have a problem of going stale at high levels because advancement was just too infrequent (and then all the poor fighter got was a couple hit points). I've even come around to the idea that a level every 4 game sessions is ok, it's nice to know that a year long campaign can progress into decently high levels, and a two year campaign could hope to hit 20th level (it's always seemed odd that D&D had these high level spells that you never actually got to use [except when the DM used them against you) because no one ever got to 18th level (ok, I did actually have a campaign reach 16th level characters I think - but that was my mult-year 8+ hours a week high school campaign - I've never even come close since).

But a thought - I think I'm looking for ways to reward more than just the standard combat activities, but also to allow players a way to mechanically express what is interesting to them. Will it really work? I'm not sure.

James - yes, I did see your AU/TSOY bits. I haven't pulled stuff down lately so I think I only got Faen keys and I've noticed you do have some more up there. I'll have to look again because definitely we could benefit from more examples of keys. We're definitely not purists since I'm using Judge's Guild's Wilderlands of High Fantasy setting and warping it and AE to fit. The giants play much less of a role in my campaign.

This discussion has been really helpful to me. I've nailed why the counters haven't been meaningfull to us. What I think I'd be most interested in now would be some ideas for keys that might work.

Frank

[Kerstin Schmidt]

This discussion has been really helpful to me. I've nailed why the counters haven't been meaningfull to us. What I think I'd be most interested in now would be some ideas for keys that might work.

Cool. Just a thought: if I were you I'd tend to start a new thread for the Keys, with an appropriate title - might draw posters in that have more to say on those than on Arcana Evolved reward mechanics.

(If you want to discuss the player about whom you're not sure whether she's there merely to accompany her husband, feel free to start  thread on that, too, as I mentioned earlier. Experience here shows that it's worth splitting topics off big bushy threads, you'll likely get more pertinent input that way.)



Kerstin

[James_Nostack]

James - yes, I did see your AU/TSOY bits. I haven't pulled stuff down lately so I think I only got Faen keys and I've noticed you do have some more up there. I'll have to look again..

Cool!  I'm glad someone got some use out of it.  I will try to add to the site more in the next few weeks.  If your group has any suggestions or ideas, my e-mail is james.m.schmitz@gmail.com -- it would be nice to know what works, and what doesn't work.

[iago]

But a thought - I think I'm looking for ways to reward more than just the standard combat activities, but also to allow players a way to mechanically express what is interesting to them. Will it really work? I'm not sure.

This part you said really needs to be underlined.  I personally feel that running a module as-is without modifying it according to the keys that your players have selected is part of the problem, if that's an end goal for you.  Some of the keys will be ignored by any adventure that's not prepared with your specific set of characters in mind ... so it's important to add in elements it doesn't otherwise cover.

That may be all the "fix" you really need ... though I would still advocate my/Chris's suggestion that there be a simple single XP pool for the entire party, and that rewards from hitting keys go into that common pool.  I think it creates a nicely cohesive sense of teamwork -- where the players are all invested in all players hitting their keys -- and it also addresses some of the imbalance issue -- if someone's keys aren't getting hit because the adventure doesn't create the opportunity, they're not getting penalized for that.

You could *also* layer on the idea that significant key-hits give a hero point in addition to the party XP benefit, which would preserve your idea that individual characters get something "extra" for themselves...  Ultimately, I think the two ideas can coexist pretty nicely.

[ffilz]

I'm seriously tempted to go to standard XP calculations for combat and traps (with the note that D&D does allow for non-combat XP based on the challenge of any combat that is avoided by non-combat actions).

I think I'll stick with something like keys being individual, and granting individual hero point awards, I will work with the players to have keys that work for their characters, and are reasonably likely to come up (including my actually making an effort to have them come up), but recognizing that different players may have different levels of motivation here (which is fine so long as the key idea doesn't dominate the game).

Thoughts on what such keys might look like are still welcome, but they really are going to have to come from the players. If the idea is for them to define their character, picking from a woefully short list of examples isn't going to work, but having some good examples will be important.

Also, if anyone has a suggestion for what to call these since they aren't keys in the way TSOY/Sweet 20 defines them since I think having a counter for Nar enablement is not necessary for our game.

Frank