a little bit of controversy?!

[Butch]

Hello everybody!

Just a little topic to go with the previous one ("a new rpg")!!!

I have this rpg that I'm designing (I have the premise, a good idea of the setting, a good idea of the system) and I just want to know what's the idea with this "GNS" thing?!  

I didn't read the whole article by Ron (sorry, it was too long) but why do we have to "put" (sorry, just don't know if it's the good word in english) rpg in different basket?!

We have to keep in mind where this game (rgp), as we know it, came from: wargame!!! Yes, the "gaming" part comes from it's "ancestor" the wargame (yep, that's the "game" in "Role Playing Game"). And after that came the story and the interpretation of character. That's where the "narrativist" and "simulationist" part of the game came ("role playing" part in "Role playing game").

I think that a rpg need to have a little part of these 3 ingredients to be a good one. If you want only rules and dices then just play wargames, there good at it. If you want only the story then just do improvisation or take theater course. And if you want just to simulate life than I will give you mine... and after that you will never do it again! ;O)

I know that everybody have his favorite "side" but we all keep playing with the other sides too!

Has a player, I will fit in any rpg with any GNS mix that the gamemaster will throw at me but as a gamemaster I know that I have this little "narrativist" side: I like a fast paced story that keep the players on their toes (but I always keep a little bit of dice throwing to keep everybody satisfied!).

That was just my 2 cents!! (just wish that nobody will want to crucify me after that!! :o) )

Butch

[Valamir]

Well Butch, no one will crucify you here.  But I'm afraid all of the points you've made are already well known to us and have been discussed at great length.  

GNS doesn't seek to put games into baskets (I encourage you to complete Ron's article) rather it seeks to match the type of decisions a player likes to make with games that promote making those types of decisions (a vastly simplified summary of its goals).

I direct you to an article on this topic I recently wrote.  It isn't in the article section yet but you can find it

HERE

[Laurel]

Nope, this is a crucifixation-free zone.  

Now, why someone would want to take the time to find a game that encourages the kinds of decisions they like to make?  Because the primary goal of playing RPGS is to have fun--- and a lot of people who are playing RPGs feel frustrated, bored, or otherwise not really having fun.  GNS is a tool that can help players determine if the problem itself is actually the game system not addressing the player's own primary goal.  When a player is able to determine what their primary goal is via GNS, they can then direct themselves to games and gaming groups that facilitate that mode of play.

If you are already having fun, if you are already playing games that meet your goals and playing with a great group of player, then you're all set and GNS isn't all that useful to you unless you dig RPG theory as a hobby in itself.  

And you don't have to like/use GNS to talk about Indie game design at the Forge.  There's a reason GNS has it own forum sep. from design and theory.  You just have to be respectful to the people who do discuss GNS-related material, let them have their threads to converse about it and focus on other threads with a different subject matter.  There are plenty of Forgers like that.  :)

[xiombarg]

I hate to be offensive, but shouldn't this topic be in one of the theory forums?

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Yup - it should be moved. I've stated this in the new forum policies, but not everyone may have read it - do not correct other forum members publically. That is the job of Ron and I, and you should contact either of us privately if you think something should be changed.

[Butch]

Ok!

First thing first! I'm really sorry if I posted this topic in the bad forum.

Next thing: I didn't mean to be disrespectful. If I was than I'm really sorry about it and I apologize to everybody for it.

That said, the only thing I wanted to say his that rpgs are in a niche market. If you have only the chance to gain a small fan base why trying to reduce it again in making a game for only one "kind" of players (gamist, narrativist, simulationist)? That's all!

Again, I'm really sorry!

Butch

[Garbanzo]

Butch,

No need to worry.  Folks here are pretty laid back.  Good to have you aboard.

----

I think what it boils down to is that the idea of GNS is not to limit game selection, but just to allow a good fit between what you like and what a given game offers.  Sure, any non DnD RPG is a niche within a niche within a niche.  But, too, there are so many more games out there than I have time to play.  IMHO - and note that the number of my posts is in the single digits - GNS is simply a framework to concretely think about preferences.  And once I'm thinking concretely about my preferences, I have a way to improve my gaming experience.  I can evaluate how well my own preferences mesh with those of my fellow players, and with the game system itself.

All three elements are present in any game.  But different games place emphasis on different things.  
What GNS says about game design is this:

1 Different people like different things about RPGs
2 These preferences can be contradictory
3 Therefore, a game that tries to suit the whole wide world will be trying to reach contradictory goals
4 A game that has internal contradictions will offer a less pleasing experience than a game with strong, coherent design goals

It might be argued that 4 is not true; tons of people play GURPS and seem to like it, for example.  GNS says that if you're happy, then don't worry about a thing!  But if not, finding a game and some players more in line with your own GNS likes will help.

-Matt

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Quickie note: I think GURPS isn't contradictory at all and represents a fine example of a very coherent, GNS-focused game (Simulationist; Exploration of System primarily and Setting secondarily).

Aside from that, I can only offer massive agreement with Matt (the bean-one; how come there are so many Matts?) and all others who've responded on this thread.

Butch, if you want to address your question one-on-one, get in touch.

Best,
Ron

[Butch]

Hello! yep, me again!

I agree with your post Garbanzo: the GNS model can help you think about your preference. If I think with the GNS model in mind, I know that I'm more in the "N" side than any other. But as a game designer, I think that I have to think about the "three sides" of this model (if I don't want to play my game alone!)

And for you're four game design "points":

1 I entirely agree with you!
2 Again I'm with you (but the gamemaster, not the game, has to deal with it - it's just my opinion)
3 Maybe not, but you can be right too! (what about a design with "plug-ins"??)
4 Can you give me an exemple of this (the name of a rpg)?!?

Talking about GURPS is like moving in an earthquake!! Ooookkkk, now, don't forget that it's just MY opinion: GURPS is not a rpg, it's just a bunch of rules. Add a setting to it and now you have a role playing game. And, I think that it is the setting that you will play with GURPS that will influence the GNS!!

That's it! enough of rambling for now!! :o)

Butch

[joshua neff]

Patrick (Butch)--

Yes, RPGs are a niche market. But you can't please all of the gamers all of the time, & personally I think it's a losing proposition to try. If you try to facilitate all types of gaming with an RPG...well, you might sell more copies, but you'll also lose out on a lot of customers (me, for one). Focusing your design facilitates gaming "out of the box"--that is, people don't have to spend time adjusting the mechanics to suit their styleof play, they can just pull out the game & start playing. This, for me, is a big selling point. Having played games that essentially try to facilitate (or at the very least placate) all types of gaming (like, say, White Wolf's games), it's been very frustrating. I've gotten to the point where I can run a White Wolf RPG if I want to, but I have to mess with a lot of the mechanics in order to get the game to be satisfying to me. Which makes the game much, much less appealing than, say, Over the Edge or Sorcerer, which I can easily pick up & play, rules intact.

Second, what's wrong with being a niche within a niche? You're not going to make any serious money producing & selling an RPG, so whether you get scads of gamers to buy it or just a few, you'll still have to keep your day job. Nothing wrong with focus.


Hey, didn't Butch Patrick play Eddie Munster on The Munsters?

[Clinton R. Nixon]

4 Can you give me an exemple of this [a game trying to meet different design goals being ass-like] (the name of a rpg)?!?

Yup. AD&D 2nd Edition. They took well-working Gamism and injected a lot of awful, awful realist Simulationism into it (weapon types being more/less effective versus armor, lots of encumberance rules, weapon speeds.) If - and I mean if - you played with all that, you would be bored out of your mind.

In a recent interview with Gary Gygax, he said, "Actually, I see very few problems with OAD&D. I ignore the weapon speed factor, the effects of weapons vs. armor, generally don't pay attention to anything but gross violations of encumbrance, and NEVER use psionics." He created the game, and realizes this stuff breaks its otherwise-coherent focus.

I perfectly understand that you can take a game like this and customize it to taste. Imagine if you didn't have to, though. Imagine if you could go to the store, buy a game, come home, read it, and then run it exactly as written. How much more fun is that?