kibbitzing

[Lamorak33]

Hi

I am starting the journey towards a more narratavist style of GM'ing and recently started as a player in a nrratavist game.  I was not prepared for how unsettling I found it that I told the group all about my characters goals, secrets and ambitions.  I felt a tinge of worry about how players might use secret information against me, and worried about how I  might use secret knowledge about their characters to my advantage in the game. 

As I want to introduce (and have started) kibbitzing in my game, I am concerned at how some of them might take it.  When I was in the GM's position and encouraging kibbitzing, it was fine, but when I was a player it it was very strange.  Is there a thread that discusses this kind of play in detail.  At the moment I am out of my comfort zone.

Regards
Rob

[Anthony I]

Rob,

I'm going through a similar experience right now with the group I am GMing for.  They all have various levels of experience- from 20+ year veteran to less than 1 year.  The one situational trait they all share is that they all have recently come out of a game with a very abusive GM.  They are all gun shy about laying any cards on the table, as the prior GM regularly punished them for it.  This applies to kibitzing as table talk, unless you were in the scene, or it involving combat, was expressly forbidden.  I can't remember how many times I heard the standard "shut up, you aren't there" line.

In the game I am running currently with these same players, table talk is encouraged, with the caveat that we try to keep it game relevant- we have social time before and after, but try to stay focused while playing.  I have been actively encouraging them to put themselves into scenes if they want to- or just to help with ideas for the other players.

I can see that they are waiting for me to spring a trap on them with this whole "enjoy themselves while gaming" thing- they really don't get that I am here to play with them, not punish them for playing.  They are also uncomfortable with revealing their plans to each other, as (my guess here) they are used to being screwed by other players, as well as the GM.  I am trying to keep the idea of riffing together, bouncing ideas off each other, and then using these ideas to make interesting things happen to the characters- whether good or bad- what they focus on.  I can see why you feel out of your comfort zone and I can see the same reaction from these players too.

[Blankshield]

To the original question, I didn't find any threads with solid advice; lots with opinions, but no real advice or description of "Playing with kibbitzing(TM)"  I'm also not the best searcher in the tree, though; someone else might come up with better results.

From my own experience:
Say exactly what you want.  No, I'm serious.  Don't pussyfoot around and be polite, punch to the point.

Don't say "Guys, let's talk about the game and explain our character's plans and motivations" and all that stuff.

Say "Guys, this jumping on each other stuff totally blows.  I'm here to have fun, and that part isn't fun."  Be very upfront and open about what you want and why you want it.

If you're worried your cool ideas will get stomped on, say so.  "Guys, I know I've been pushing the kibbitzing and sharing ideas and stuff, but I'm also kinda worried that laying out my plans like this will get me screwed.  Can we please be cool about this?"

I can't stress enough how much the whole "talking about what you want" thing improves play.  It's like the difference between masturbation and good sex.

James

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Rob,

I'd like a little more context about actually playing. What game, how many people, what happened, who said what to whom - that kind of thing. Plain old journalistic description, even if it's just for a scene - as long as that scene made a difference to you in some way.

Best,
Ron

[Lamorak33]

Hi Rob,

I'd like a little more context about actually playing. What game, how many people, what happened, who said what to whom - that kind of thing. Plain old journalistic description, even if it's just for a scene - as long as that scene made a difference to you in some way.

Best,
Ron

Hi

I think Blankshield is onto something.  I definately want great sex and not masturbation, metaphorically speaking!

As a Gm I feel comfortable with kibbitzing 'at my table', but uncomfortable so far as a player.  Maybe I'm a control freak I don't know.

As for an exampl, well I only have one so let me shoot.  I have come up with this character and given him a delayed kicker, so to speak.  I am playing Heroquest in Glorantha, and my characters father is not my characters father and is to be disinherited, but my character doesn't know that.  Onto the actual text of the game,

one of the other players asks about what he knows about my character, so I talk about what I think is 'common knowledge'.  The GM says, its ok to let out my background as we don't have secrets at the table and someone might be able to play into my background.  So there I am feeling oddly like an Alchoholics anonymous guy giving the goods on my character. 

Later in the game I start to thinking how I can engineer  my character into knowledge that I know but my character doesn't and kind of felt like a fraud for just thinking it.   Is it latent sim/ gamism?  Am I really the unhappiest player in the world?  Maybe I just need to relax and go with the flow?  I am really into the game already, I guess I was trying to find out if my experience was a common one when making the jump from ultra sim player to narratavism.  I certainly love it as a GM, and it has breathed new life into my game, hence the suprise at my inner reaction as a player.

Regards
Rob

[Josh Roby]

My armchair diagnosis?  You're identifying too much with your character.  That is, there's you, the player, and there's your character.  The relation between those two is nowhere near as simple as we often say they are.  If you get a twinge whenever you think about your character in terms that your character can't think about himself, you need to recognize that you're thinking about the character as the player, much like an author thinks about the characters in a book she writes.  You are using Director stance, in other words.  And (depending on your social contract) this is okay, and allows you to do a lot of things that you wouldn't otherwise have been able to do.  However, taking that stance also means that there are some things that you can't do -- including having that fulltime immersion in your character that is often touted as "the" goal of roleplaying.

In the end, you may decide that you like that immersion more than you like the greater perspective.  You may "get over" your kneejerk reaction against thinking in those terms and decide that you really like that better.  Or -- and this is the optimal scenario in my mind -- you may come to appreciate Director stance without losing your enjoyment of Actor.  Then you have two different and enjoyable ways to play.