[Innkeep]On the right track?

[Vibilo]

This being my first real post on here forgive me if im missing some info in my post...

I am currently working on a game that I am calling Innkeep (at least right now). The game takes place in and around a medievel, optionally fantasy Inn or Tavern. The idea being that one player's character has opened up the Inn and the other players are the various colourful patrons of the Inn. There are a number of options as to how the game is palyed: the players can each have their own innkeeper with his own inn and they take turns playing the patrons running around town, the players each have an innkeeper employed at the Inn and take turns "working", or one player is always the innkeeper. It is not my intention to have this be a long-term styled game; but more as a warm-up before the big campaign you play every 2 weeks or whatever, something you do while waiting for everyone to arrive to get you in the mood.

I have a couple of questions regarding my rules:

• Have I made it too complex/in depth (in terms of inn creation and furnishing)?
• Have I overlooked any major rules that should be placed into the game?
• Is there anything I could add to make the game more entertaining?
• Is there anything in desperate need of clarification?

You can look at a copy of Innkeep at this address vibilo.tripod.com/Inn-Keep.doc.

I think I saw another inn styled game floating around these forums a while back but I never read it (at the time I wasn't working on this) and would be interested if anyone knows the title of the game so I can have a look.

[Jack Aidley]

I get a not available for download page when I try that link. It says

This file is hosted by Tripod, a Lycos®Network Site, and is not available for download. Please check out Tripod's Help system for more information about Remote Loading and our Remote Loading policy.

[Stickman]

A right click on the link and Save As.. worked for me, just digesting at the moment ..

[Jack Aidley]

Doesn't work for me, it just downloads the page telling me I can't have it.

[Graham W]

Right-clicking and downloading works for me too.

The game you're looking for might be BarQuest, an entry for the Game Chef competition this year. It got rather good reviews, as I remember.

Have I made it too complex/in depth (in terms of inn creation and furnishing)?

It's not too complex for me. I actually like the idea of the players building the inn together - it gets them invested in it and starts the game nicely. And it reminds me of the computer game The Sims.

But a couple of things:

- Do the players collaborate on building the inn? If so, are there any rules about how they collaborate? For example, what happens if one player decides to spend loads of money on furnishings but another wants to build a bigger inn? (This doesn't necessarily matter, but I'm just wondering)

- Do the players physically draw the inn? Or use models in some way? If not, how will they know how many feet of wall they need?

- Why do patrons of the inn get a say in building the inn? (Again, doesn't necessarily matter)

- Is there any practical fallout if the players forget to put something vital in the inn? Say, if they forget to provide cutlery?

Have I overlooked any major rules that should be placed into the game?
Is there anything I could add to make the game more entertaining?
Is there anything in desperate need of clarification?

What I'm not sure of, at the moment, is what the characters actually do. Do they just sit around talking and ordering drinks? If so, will that make for an interesting game? Or do they defend the inn against threats, or take on rival inns at skittles matches, or what?

Graham

[Jonas Ferry]

I think I saw another inn styled game floating around these forums a while back but I never read it (at the time I wasn't working on this) and would be interested if anyone knows the title of the game so I can have a look.

Do you mean my sketches on a game called "The Tavern", posted to this forum? The two threads are:

1: Introduction and player engagement
2: Conflict resolution and damage

It's fallen back into the soup in my head of games to write, and will stay there until something about it gets me going again. I still find the basic idea of players running a tavern interesting, though, and I'll see if I can help you after I've read your game.

[Jack Aidley]

Dave was kind enough to pass me a copy of the game, so I've now looked through it.

My first reaction way, way too book-keepy and finnicity. The stuff you've got looks more like a design document for Innkeeper Tycoon than it does for a game you describe as intending as a warm up. There's lots of specifics about how nice different areas of the inn are to sit in, but I can't really see any rules that rif off them.

I think you need to look at the three standard questions of game design on the Forge:

1. What is your game about?
2. What do the characters do?
3. What do the players do?

Particularly those last two. I'm not seeing in your rules anything focusing the player actions, or anything centering character design on what you're expecting to be interesting. You've got a bunch of, in effect, scenarios (your events) but I can't see how they link to the rest of your design. How does your game handle someone sneaking into bed with the innkeeper? What's at stake when they do? Why is it interesting and fun to play out?

[nsruf]

I am not sure from your document how play is supposed to look. So yes, please, answer the forge questions.

-----

Some things I noticed:

- Is there a gamemaster? Your document doesn't mention one, but who sets the penalties for things like "harrassed by customer" if there is none?

- You explain how to calculate generosity, but I am still unclear about the economy:

Where do the patrons get the money they spend at the inn?

Do they always spend a fraction of their total wealth equal to generosity, regardless of the service/goods they get? So a beggar with 4 copper pieces and 25% generosity gets the 4-room-suite for 1 cp?

Is the economy supposed to be the focus of the game, i.e. the innkeeper tries to get as much money as possible out of his patrons, who in turn try to get as much service for their money?

- The inn-creation is too detailed for me. Also, how do I see that my inn is really complete, and what if I forget something? I'd recommend using a far more abstract system, e.g. giving your inn attributes like location, furniture, food, drinks, prettyness of barmaids, etc. which can be bought up with money and go down again over time. This way, you are always guaranteed a "complete" inn, and it is easy to see what impact your investments will have.

- Characters seem pretty incompetent, e.g. the innkeep with a 45% chance to bake a pie.

Is this intended for comic effect? What happens if you fail a roll?

Also, treating each cooking skill as a separate, unrelated ability is pretty harsh. You run into all the problems with detailed, open-ended skill lists. To start with, when is your innkeep actually able to do his job? As with the building up of the inn from small, unrelated parts, its really hard to see when you have a "working design". Is "bake pie" and "cook soup" enough? Which dishes can be created by the same skill (e.g., is a souffle a pie?)?

-----

But again, before we can really understand your game, please tell us about the focus of gameplay. And whatever you do, don't mention the war!

[Stickman]

I'd go with the 'a little too complicated' comments as above.

I'm sitting with my buddies for a pre-game warmup (or something cool for a one one). I don't really want to calculate square footage of my Inn, cost to maintain thatch of varying quality, and know that I get to make my Inn Keeper +2% better at making a single dish after the game is through :)

Some thoughts and suggestions:

1) Make rooms or sections of the Inn into components, so I can choose a Decent Sallon, Lousy Bar, Nice Kitchen and Stinky Cellar. Something like that, where I can plug together a new Inn in a minute or two.

2) I'd go for generic skills (Cooking, Pouring, Throwing Out ..) with set modifiers for simplicity, maybe coming down to a D20 for ease of maths, You're making a pie, add +1 (5%) for each other 'modifier' .. it's a Troll Pie with Creme? that's +2. Troll and Ogre Mince Pie with Olives and Side Dish? +5

3) Simplify the components too ... If I want to have some funky wood in the stove, I'm happy to narrate the differences between Elven Sweet Wood and Tickthatch Bramble Stem in terms of which smells nicer, burns with a purple flame or whatever, but I probably don't want to be looking up much beyond : Fancy Fire Wood for 1 night 3 coins, or Simple Firewood 1 coin. Same goes for spoilage rates on food, how many bedside tables I have in a given room :)

For a pick up game, I think you need to be able to generate characters in less than 5 minutes, probably including the Inn itself. Also think about storing the information for the Inn, again for a pickup I'm not sure having a detailed character sheet is a great thing.

Cool idea for a game, I think with some work it'll be good :)

[Vibilo]

Wow i didnt expect that much feedback...
The link was working im not sure what exactly is happening at the moment. I will try and fix it when I get a little more time.

I had a feeling that I would get mixed feelings about the complexity of the Inn creation; I personally believe it is a bit too complex but hadn't thought of another way to do it. The idea of just giving a complete inn with choices of different room types is much better and I will probably change it to that. Yes players do work together to build the initial inn; i do not know about any problems that could occur during this because I have yet to play test it, though I assume that players should be able to compromise on something as a whole.

The game is intended to be GM'less. The idea is that players work together to further play by collaberativly deciding on the actual mechanincs (-5% to that because your being pestered by so and so). I also chose to use a percentile system because of the lack of a GM; I believe that having a d20 or d10 resolution system would be rather troublesome when determining difficulty. With a percentile your chances are already laid out and there is no need for a "target".

What is the goal of the players/characters in the game? Well as I envision it, I see a group of characters at the inn, each talking about the recent events in their lives, participating in pub games, and just generally acting like someone at an actual English Pub. The role of the innkeeper is to try and earn as much money as possible for the inn; however in order to do this they need to increase the Enjoyment Factor of the PC's so that they will spend more. So the innkeeper is challenged with trying to deal with each characters individual quirks which are specifically tailored to make the Innkeepers life difficult. In addition with dealing with other characters quirks the innkeeper also has to deal with his own; this could mean he recieves penalties when being talked to, or hating people with a particular tone of voice, or whatever. These would contribute to making it harder to accomplish his goals.

I hope that clears up a few questions and will lead to more suggestions and insights.

[Graham W]

One quick thought is that playing the innkeeper sounds much more fun than playing the other denizens at the inn. Is there any way that the innkeeper role could be shared?

I'm intrigued by the bit about playing pub games. Do the players actually play pub games or just the characters? Personally, I like the idea of all the players playing shove ha'penny as part of the game, but perhaps that's just me.

[Stickman]

I think there's the selling point right there, the mechanics of the game could be resolution via pub game mechanics .. so a simple task is resolved with a game of shove ha'penny or a flip and catch of x beer mats :) A more 'sensible' variation could be a dice game played in the pub, for example a dice based version of poker like yahtzee.

The difference between percentile and D10 / D20 resolution is, as far as I can see, only a question of ganularity and handling time / math requirements. Seems like the simpler the mechanics are the smoother the game will flow in thei kind of narrative environment.

I can see the game being broken into literal 'rounds' of play, maybe you could have multiple roles that are available for play (cook, serving person, bar keep, inn keeper, nouncer) and have all of the players take one of those roles, giving everyone a shot at being the 'authority'? When one person is being the barkeep, the others get to be patrons, and play revolves each 'round' ..

[Jack Aidley]

I also chose to use a percentile system because of the lack of a GM; I believe that having a d20 or d10 resolution system would be rather troublesome when determining difficulty. With a percentile your chances are already laid out and there is no need for a "target".

That's not so. What you're using is a roll under system with a % dice, you can get exactly the same effect with a roll under system with a different dice size. Under your system, the Inn Keep might have Bake Pie 35%, meaning that he has to roll 35 or less on d100 - this is exactly equivalent to having Bake Pie 7, meaning that he has to roll 7 or less on a d20.

[Vibilo]

I'm intrigued by the bit about playing pub games. Do the players actually play pub games or just the characters?

Originally I had meant just the characters playing the pub games but I really like the idea of using pub games as a resolution mechanic which was mentioned; I might switch to doing that. I know of an old English pub game called "Shut the Boxes" which involves rolling 2d6 and closing any number of boxes who's numbers are equal to or are able to be added together to make the rolled number. Perhaps I could use this game and using the number of closed boxes as an indicator of success at a given task; though I could see this becoming time consuming. Maybe of using a variety of different pub games (some dice, some a little les standard such as tossing coasters) and making it random every time a player attempts to acomplish something that would require a "roll"?

I can see the game being broken into literal 'rounds' of play, maybe you could have multiple roles that are available for play (cook, serving person, bar keep, inn keeper, nouncer) and have all of the players take one of those roles, giving everyone a shot at being the 'authority'? When one person is being the barkeep, the others get to be patrons, and play revolves each 'round' ..

The game is intended to have a "rotating innkeeper"; having different innkeepers working different "shifts". I have also been playing around with the idea of using a timer to either represent players turns of narration or an entire evening.