Games of the Geek...Why we play.

[IndigoDreamer]

Alright.

I've more or less stalked this website forum for nearly a year now and haven't said a word, but last night, I got it in my thick head to actually register, and tonight, I'm actually posting.  (No promises for repeat performances on that one!)


I supppose I was looking for opinions based on the following timeline, and curiousity strikes me to ask some odd questions...which will be asked momentarily. :)

I started out as a writer, turned into a D&D wannabe gamer who lacked anyone else to play with, who then turned to Board games, then to Forum RPG's, and then e-mail/webpage/st  RPG's, and then MMORPG's, before shifting to mudding, then mushing, and then mush/mudding again...all RPG's...Then Finally finding a D&D group, assorted tabletop D&D's, only to then discover Larping...in it's many, various, and sometimes not so fun forms, reverted back to mudding, then reverting back to MMORPG's AND Larping...which where I am now.

The thought process of my comingofgeekdom made me curious on what drives some of you guys to game, and which platforms offer the best actual content and story/character freedom.

Judging from your own experiences, Could you rattle off a few that are driven by story development...and where can one find such a game?  :)  I find alot of corruption wherever I look and it's disenheartening for me because I feel so strongly towards creation, writing, background and well...development.  (I've been told several times in my current game that I put more work into my character's name than most of the players bothered to for thier entire character...and that to me...although it shows you what a dork I really am, is sort of sad.)  I have always believed creation was the most important thing....so...anyhow..

I apologize ahead of time if I have managed to confuse anyone with my babbling...but it's something I'm curious enough to finally stick my hand up in the air to ask :P

[TonyLB]

Welcome to posting-hood, Indigo!

Your question is a bit like walking into a hardware store and asking "Can you recommend a good tool?"  You understand that there's a lot of cool, functional stuff out there, and you want to get your hands on it.  And that's great.  We want to encourage that.  But the natural follow-up for the conscientious hardware-store-clerk has to be "Well, what sort of project are you tackling?"

There are a lot of games that strongly promote story development, for some definition of "story."  We can do a lot more if you can tell us what sort of story you want to tell.  Is your ideal story about a richly tapestried world, about earth-shattering decisions, about exploration of the human condition, about how cool ninjas are... or, most likely, something else more specific to you?

Sorry to follow up a question with a question.  I can blindly recommend Sorceror, My Life with Master and Dogs in the Vineyard, if that helps.  Those should be on the shelf of anyone looking for a grounding in what innovative design can do.  They're the hammer, screwdriver and power-drill of my strained hardware-store metaphor.  Beyond that, you'd have to get specific about what you would find fun to accomplish.

[IndigoDreamer]

That alone should show you just what sort of luck I've actually had in finding good games.  (Although I have stumbled upon one or two that has a few spectacular roleplayers)

Although I am always favor to the fantasy, mythological to most anything else, I'm really not that picky in genre, although I'll admit I have a certain admiration for well...the non-mundane.

I just want to be involved in a game or find a game or two that has a really solid just...well...I honestly don't care as much about the setting as I do as finding something somewhere that is just full of people who want to just well...play out a story.  (I'm quite convinced it doesn't exist but hey, there's always wishful thinking right?)

I'll check out the reccomended suggestions, so thank you...

Ps...The theory portion fo my question hasn't been answered..

I'm Still interested in what others look for in thier game, OTHER than hardware fundamentals.

[IndigoDreamer]

Clarification.

I was talking in tangent speech so I'll clarify.

I don't care what 'type' of game it is, as long as the main concept is story and character based.  Character development to me is mind, body, deeds, changes, attitude, goals...things I think perhaps I took for granted being assumed when I posted first. 

As I stated, I'm a nut about the story, and I've found so few games that seem to focus on THAT.   Not just the overal story, but the details.

So while it seems very general, it's sort of like adding the analogy that knowing what tool you are looking for doesn't help if the boxes aren't labeled and you aren't sure what box holds the tool you want :)

other than that...yeah! :)

[Trevis Martin]

Hi Indigo,

Ok, what I'm getting from your posts is you seem to be looking for gamers that share similar values and not so much for system?  You are using game in the sense of 'a group of people who are gaming' rather than 'a set of rules?'  If that's the case, and you are aware of some of the amazing systems here that do a wonderful job supporting the kinds of things I think you are looking for, then the best I can do is suggest you check out the indie-netgaming group at yahoo.  We play a lot of Forge games there, mostly by IRC. 

If you are looking for system recommendations then I heartily second the suggestions that Tony made above.  I also (since you talk about creation a lot) recommend Universalis (which has its own forum here, as does Dogs and Sorcerer.)

Or are you looking for methods of finding roleplayers with similar interests to yours?

best

Trevis

[Rob Carriere]

I don't care what 'type' of game it is, as long as the main concept is story and character based.  Character development to me is mind, body, deeds, changes, attitude, goals...things I think perhaps I took for granted being assumed when I posted first. 

The way to say "welcome" around here is asking more questions... :-)

I think that it would help a lot for you to specify who you expect to do what in the game. If a character is to develop in the game, then in addition to the usual background stuff, the character must be played and conditions that make the character develop must be played as well.

Who will play what? One traditional division is that each "character player" plays one character and the GM plays all the conditions for all the characters. In other games, the character player plays both the character and the conditions. Still other games share ownership of the characters. And so on.

Do you have preferences in this regard, or is it "as long as I see a character develop, I'm cool."?

SR
--

[IndigoDreamer]

Can I have my cake and eat it too?

If I know the right system, I can find the right game and then, gamers.  If I find the latter first, I'm more than willing to compromise the first, and if I find the first, I'm likely to at least be able to find some of the second.

I'll try the forementioned site as well.

And I prefer that each person has thier character, and I don't mind ST's, but I prefer player run plots...another thing is that a game does MORE with the actual history and background and cause and effect then to have it be merely a sideshow that no one bothers to take advantage or disadvantage of.  Some games I see, background, history, and sometimes even the stuff you do has no effect on anything unless you create a conflict with someone, and sometimes, not even then.

...This make sense?

[Michael S. Miller]

You want "player-run plots"? You've come to the right place.

All the games Tony suggested specialize in them. As do numerous others. If you want to see how that works before buying, let me push you into the deep end of the pool. Read one of the greatest series of threads ever to show up on these boards. They're a discussion of how to run Sorcerer. Ron shows step-by-step how the players and GM work together to build Potential Story into the game. It starts with To Tor, Jesse, and Paul and follows in three more threads named "Art Deco Melodrama." Just do a search. If you don't yet own Sorcerer, some stuff won't make sense, but I think the process is discernable.

I also highly recommend Vincent's creating theme article. That's why I run games. (and write them, too)

[Meguey]

If you're looking for solid story, I hear The Mountain Witch is astounding. Actual play is here.

If you're looking for solid players, check this thread for one way to get yourself a decent group.

[M. J. Young]

One of the main things that drives me to game is that people keep pressing me to run them. Some of these people are my children, and so I get to spend some time with them when we play.

That of course is not what you wanted to know, but it's a major factor. Gaming is a social activity, something you do with other people and through which you get to know them and they you. That aspect of connecting with friends through a shared hobby should not be understated.

I want to add to the list of games which are truly designed to create stories Legends of Alyria. A very brief overview may whet your appetite for this. Incidentally, it's free, published in blog form, and although it's only recently been released the ideas within it have been influencing games published before it for quite a while now.

The first session is sort of like character creation, but it's not like the kind of character creation you see in traditional games--that is, the players don't each create a character, but they corporately create all the characters. Further, they create what is called a storymap, showing how the characters are connected to each other. When I say they create all the characters, that is exactly what is meant--they create the heroes, the villains, the sidekicks, the minions, the victims, placing them all in relation to each other. What does the villain want? Why does the hero care? Each major role is outlined, and the character for that role is designed. Then, once the major characters are in place, the players decide who will play which character.

The characters don't have strength or dexterity or intelligence.  They have three stats--Force, Insight, and Determination.  Force can mean that the character is strong, but a character can be physically strong and not have force. It can mean a dynamic personality that steamrollers over others, but it doesn't have to be rude. In the same way, the three stats don't mean something specific, but a general idea of the character's strengths.

Characters also have characteristics which are very like values.  These represent things which motivate the character.  The trick here is that they can be used either to favor or to hinder the character who has them. For example, if the character has "Loves Desdemona" as a high characteristic, the player could announce that because his character "Loves Desdemona" and Desdemona's honor is at stake in this, he will use that characteristic instead of an attribute for his score. On the other hand, in a very similar situation his opponent could say that because the character "Loves Desdemona" and taking a strong stand here could put Desdemona in danger, the adversary will use that characteristic for himself instead of his own score. The use of the characteristic then becomes part of the narration.

Characters also have, gain, and spend, inspiration and corruption points. One way these can be spent is to override the resolution system in a particular confrontation. The expenditure of an inspiration point means "Good wins", and the expenditure of a corruption point means "Evil wins". These do not, however, mean that the good character or the evil character in this confrontation wins--it means that the outcome of this confrontation will be such that Ultimate Good or Ultimate Evil benefits from it.

The setting is something of a post-apocalyptic techno-fantasy. More interestingly, the elements of the setting are completely at the disposal of the players. That is, it is known that there are the mist seas, the Citadel, the Ark, and a few other key landmarks--but where they are is entirely up to the players. At some point in play, one of the players could say of his character, "They will have the answer to this at The Ark, and since The Ark is only about a day's journey from here, I'm going there," and that statement establishes that The Ark is a day's journey from wherever the character happens to be. It isn't that The Ark moves; it's that where it is is entirely determined by the needs of this story, and the details of the shape of the world will be adjusted for the story being told in it right now. When this story is over, the slate is blank, and the next story happens once more in an Alyria in which those landmarks can be placed on the map as needed when needed.

I think you'll find it quite story-driven. It can be played with or without a referee.

--M. J. Young

[IndigoDreamer]

...That sounds exactly up my alley...

Now if I can just find people to play it with, I'd be set! :)  Thankee!

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Although I am always favor to the fantasy, mythological to most anything else, I'm really not that picky in genre, although I'll admit I have a certain admiration for well...the non-mundane.

The Shadow of Yesterday by Clinton R. Nixon is probably a great place to start. It has a system called Keys that are the system by which you gain experience. For instance, if you have Key of the Manipulator, you get experience to varying but non-arbitrated degrees by manipulating the political situation around you.

The Mountain Witch is a doozy, too, particularly because it has a set amount of time for a story - about two sessions, and focuses very, very strongly on inter-character development.

I just want to be involved in a game or find a game or two that has a really solid just...well...I honestly don't care as much about the setting as I do as finding something somewhere that is just full of people who want to just well...play out a story.  (I'm quite convinced it doesn't exist but hey, there's always wishful thinking right?)

If you have people who want that - and there's a fair chance you do by now - then a system that supports your agenda is paramount.

I'm Still interested in what others look for in thier game, OTHER than hardware fundamentals.

A way to press the social and personal issues the players want to press. A mechanically supported way of saying "cool!" At least that's where I'm at right now.

[Damballa]

what drives some of you guys to game, and which platforms offer the best actual content and story/character freedom.

I had an interesting experience - after getting my semi-regular gaming group together last night, I was asked by one of the players what the rules were - where the rules were in fact.  I pointed towards a pile of game books, dice, my notes & illustrations - explaining that imagined SiS would be moderated from different viewpoints using maths and chance to determine uncertainties of free will actions of each character. 

The player turned tack - "What's the point?  What's the point to playing this?  It doesn't have any point!"  I was somehow stripped of any good response.  I couldn't think of any rules nor any point... apart from mutter The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast of "umm...err...ah...we're all collaborating on a story, mixing a series of narratives together...." and then I sank into the existential void of not knowing anything anymore. 

The questions seem to ask something more fundamental than 'why do we roleplay'; something deeper about society & life itself.

What are the Rules?
What is the Point?
 

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

What are the Rules?
What is the Point?

That's what we call the calm before the storm, the bolt from the blue that shatters illusions, the dorje that brings enlightenment.

I can't help you with that stuff, but Vincent can.

I look forward to your game design.

[Blankshield]

The player turned tack - "What's the point?  What's the point to playing this?  It doesn't have any point!"  I was somehow stripped of any good response.  I couldn't think of any rules nor any point... apart from mutter The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast of "umm...err...ah...we're all collaborating on a story, mixing a series of narratives together...." and then I sank into the existential void of not knowing anything anymore. 

The questions seem to ask something more fundamental than 'why do we roleplay'; something deeper about society & life itself.

What are the Rules?
What is the Point?
 

It's fun.

Your answer to "What's the point to playing this?" should, at some level, be "because we enjoy playing this." 

James