Backwards Signs idea

[Kenway]

I just looked at the local library's copy of Over The Edge again and it got me thinking about the idea of Signs (a descriptive physical trait or mannerism you choose for having a skill).
 Could an rpg mechanic work where it's backwards?  That is, when making a character, you decide on your Signs first and don't worry about skills or abilities at all.
 For example, someone might have "a mischievous glint in their eye" with a value of say 6 (from 1-10).  Such a PC would probably say this person is used to trying to hustle people or sneaking around, but it would always be very open to interpretation.  Other stats/signs could be a knowing frown, continuous fidgeting, a springy step, or even "missing one arm" (probably related to combat experience, and could also be used to intimidate people), etc.

[Mike Holmes]

It sounds to me like these are just more creative ideas for traits that would probably be purchaseable in several games that already exist (including Universalis, which is what makes me think of this response). So, sure, go for it.

Mike

[Kenway]

Other sources:
 -This "idea"was also inspired by one of the AD&D rulebooks I read a long time ago.  I think it was in the description of charisma, they said that a big scar on your face would result in a penalty to reaction.  They later suggested that it could be a bonus to reaction if you were say talking to a bunch of veteran fighters.
 -I also read some of the Internet complaints with GURPS' advantages/disadvantages.
 -And even in some of the newer freeform net rpgs, your characters have skills/flaws, but I thought that good roleplayers/gms should be able to blur the line between "good" and "bad."

 Again, 99% of my rpg experience is from AD&D.
 I'll do some more reading.

[Mike Holmes]

Previously in Universalis we had a traits/flaws dichotomy. But later we realized that there was little difference in how we used each (we were allowing either to be used as either a bonus or a penalty depending on situation). So we eliminated the difference. You can refer to your Level 4 Happy Drunk trait as a Flaw if you like, but, mechanically, it is no different than Level 4 Herculean Physique trait.

We got a lot of support on that change from Ron who had decided a long time ago that Flaws were not really detrimental to player enjoyment of character in any way, other than possibly in Gamist situations (though even there they might be thought of as self-inflicted handicaps; in the golfing sense of the term handicap). Even in a Simulationist game, a Flaw just gives you more opportunity to explore. And in Narrativist games, flaws mean more protagonism.

Or, as many have said before, Power Balance does not necessarily equal Play Balance.

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Kenway, a few commercial RPGs have presented character descriptors that include both "upsides" and "downsides," rather than any one being "positive" or "negative." The one I'm thinking of right now is Noir, but I'm certain it's not alone.

I like your basic idea very much, that is, starting with Signs and moving to the concrete during play. Hero Wars includes one character creation option that's pretty close to this.

Mike, do us a favor and try to tone down the Universalis references. For one thing, it's not universally available, and for another, once you've made the basic point that Universalis can do what Kenway's talking about, there's no need to repeat it.

Best,
Ron

[Fabrice G.]

Hi Kenway,

about the double value of trait (positive and negative): I'm playing with a homebrew system for two years in witch players create their characters by choosing a certain number of traits. Basically, the traits are "neutrals". That means that in certain situation they are positive, in other they are hindering you.
To take Mike's alcool related exemple:
- trait: alcoolism. + when aving to drink and behaving relatively well
                         - when your reputation is at stake, or if you whish to stop drinking.

Yes it's working pretty well, the players just need to break their habits.

As for the make up of backward signs, I think that you still need to state some informations before hand, just to be sure about the developpement of your character.
In my games, you just have to define your character choosing his occupation, some psychological and physical traits ...and it's all done.

Maybe i'll post the full system somedays...

To answer your question: yes this is feasable!! (and all my ranting was meant to tell you that that's the way I run my games.)

Fabrice.
(sorry for the ranting)