[Cutthroat] Ronnies feedback

[Ron Edwards]

As I read through Cutthroat and kept taking notes, I kept saying to myself, "Another problem here, another here, oh look, another here," and assuming the game was going into the "other" pile accordingly ... until I got to the end and gave it an overview in my mind. Conclusion: yeah, I can play this, and I want to. Boy, that Rat concept is awesome. Glory be, skitchy little hassles and all, this one is a winner! Troy's going to flip!

[Easy question: is Ron a sucker for the 1970s? You think?]

Now for all those picky criticisms.

1. Player-characters are over-elaborate. Girlfriends don't need leashes, e.g.; their Needs take care of that nicely. Conceivably, bikers may well take either a Vice or a Secret, not both. That sort of thing.

2. Arrgh, a bunch of task/conflict bullshit. Resolution is way too clunky.

3. Bad examples: nicotine addiction is a Secret? What? Come on.

4. Meaningless punishments and constant second-guessing of players, classic timid-virgin writing. "I want them to play like this, oh god what if they don't, better put in a harsh punishment then"

5. Shooting seems badly placed as the primary attack form ... I'm getting the idea that Troy knows few if any bikers ...

Do like the Raid/Rally distinction, although play is a big vague

Am I missing something when I perceive that a low-status girlfriend seems worthless?

Overall, the girlfriends' Desires and biker Secrets need a lot of work, as they are obviously the core motor for making the fictional content worthwhile.

Hey Troy! Planning on publishing with further development? I say yes, indeed! I'd even suggest an unusual, magazine-style format - like a biker magazine!

Best,
Ron

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Glory be, skitchy little hassles and all, this one is a winner! Troy's going to flip!

And I did!  Two backflips and a summersault.  Anyway....

RE: Vice and Secret- I was thinking of changing the mechanics for Vice.  What I have in mind is something very much akin to the Desire of the Girlfriend, in that the Biker must feed his need as well on a Raid.  The Vice would be public knowledge.  It still can hamper a Biker during a challenge, but the change is instead of simply knowing the Vice to gain the bonus, you have to narrate how your Biker exploits that weakness of your opponent.  This might require some really good examples in the book.  What do you think about the idea?  And you're right, in re-reading what I said about Secrets, nicotine addiction is pretty lame.

RE: Resolution- Totally in agreement.  In straw person playtests it was very clunky.  Also, when in a shoot-out, it is way to easy to kill someone especially if more than one player jumps in.  So, I think I'm going to adopt some Dogs in the Vineyard philosophy here.  Either agree to what happens or roll dice.  A player narrates what they want to have happen on a Raid (for instance) until he's done or someone – either another Biker or the Police – oppose him.  Then all rolls are opposed and the winner narrates the outcome.  Sound better?

RE: Punishments- As for the Timid Virgin thing, you're spot on.  I admit very much that I was, and it's probably something that this game will help me work through.  I would like you to be a bit more specific, if you could, on what you mean by, "Meaningless punishments..." in the game.  I have no doubt that they are there, but sometimes the author needs help seeing the flaws in his work.  I appreciate it.

RE: Troy doesn't know any bikers- Heh, I don't.  That means research!  All I know right now is just a little bit about the history of the Hell's Angels.  I really need to dig in and get some background.  I'd also like to play up the setting a bit more.  I chose the 1970's because it's a very colorful pulp time period, right up there with the 20's and the Wild West.  So, I definitely have my work cut out for me here.  Got any good suggestions for sources?

RE: Raid/Rally Play- Yeah, play might be a bit vague in how each is differentiated.  That's probably a side effect of only having 24hrs to write the game.  I like the dichotomy of the two play arenas also.  So I look forward to making the distinctions more robust and adding in better examples.

RE: Low Girlfriend Status- You know, as I started to write the game that didn't even cross my mind.  I just saw her as an extra bonus to help the Biker out from time to time.  But as I finished the game, she became so much more central to play and to winning.  Therefore, Girlfriend Chargen will also have to change.  Any Biker with a low stat GF is definitely going to be hamstringed for the rest of the game.  Also, as the game progresses, the GFs lose their effectiveness because the Status of the Bikers increase.  I'm not sure if this is a design flaw or something that will help drive the Bikers to action themselves.  Only playtesting will show.

RE: The Rat-  Could you be more specific about what liked about the Rat in the game?  As I make changes, I want to make sure I leave the good stuff alone.

RE: Other- I'd also like your comments on the Rewards at the end of the game and the Trumping mechanic-  even if it's only to say, "They look fine." 

Hey Troy! Planning on publishing with further development?

Absolutely!  This game is going to get the revisions it needs and definitely make it to market.  I look forward to your feedback and mentoring for this game is in sore need of it.

I'd even suggest an unusual, magazine-style format - like a biker magazine!

I love that idea!  I was originally planning on making it sorta digest size- each page would be half a normal 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper.  But I really like the magazine idea.  I'll pick up a few this weekend to get some ideas.

Overall, I just want to say thanks, Ron.  Not for selecting me a winner, but for hosting this contest at all.  I have learned more about game design and about the Big Model in this exercise than at any other point since I started coming here.  It's so nice to begin to understand just what it is you're talking about in those essays and then start to apply it in games I design.  This has been a big growth opportunity for me, and that's what I appreciate most.

Peace,

-Troy

[Gregor Hutton]

The True Crime section of bookshops is a great place to pick up books on Hells Angels/Bikie gangs. Personally, I'm more familiar with European and Austalian bikies than US ones.

IMO there's been a real explosion of true crime books in the last 10 years that give spectacular/morbid (delete as apporpriate) insight into these cultures. In Australia "toe cutters" seem quite a feature to, in fact someone got their feet mangled only the other month. Gruesome.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

The True Crime section of bookshops is a great place to pick up books on Hells Angels/Bikie gangs. Personally, I'm more familiar with European and Austalian bikies than US ones

-Interesting.  I hadn't thought of looking that section.  I'll definately have to check that out the next time I'm in a Barnes and Noble or Borders.  Thanks a lot for the tip.  Appreciate it :)

Peace,

-Troy

[lumpley]

Look for Under and Alone by William Queen.

-Vincent

[tygertyger]

Ah, yes... this was one of the ones that jumped out at me right off the bat.  I'm not at all surprised that it is among the winners.  Now, on to my comments.

1. Player-characters are over-elaborate. Girlfriends don't need leashes, e.g.; their Needs take care of that nicely. Conceivably, bikers may well take either a Vice or a Secret, not both. That sort of thing.

I agree.  Since this is meant to be a quick-and-easy game (at least, I get that impression from my reading of it) chargen should be fast and simple.  The less dead weight in the process, the better.

Am I missing something when I perceive that a low-status girlfriend seems worthless?

Yea, verily.  How about a mechanic that links the GF's Status to the biker's?  Or use the biker's Status and give the GF a bonus of some kind that adds to it for the purpose of certain challenges.  This meshes with rl in that a woman's status in a real biker gang is partly a function of her man's -- the leader's girl outranks the other women, for sure.

[Gregor Hutton]

Try looking through http://www.ozbiker.org/ -- I see there is an interview with William Queen under Articles > Archived > Mongols. [As an aside they refer to a bike in bad condition as a "rat" in Australia (e.g. a Rat Triumph or whatever).]

I definitely think there should be a link between the status of a member and his girl. And just to say that I'm really looking forward to see how this game develops.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

I'm leaning toward the unrealistic but entertaining idea that biker-gang girlfriends all have the same status, which is to say, none. The GF is a feature or function of the biker's status, and as such, in the game, they are all basically alike except for their Desires. I think this'll streamline play very, very well and lead to more interesting stories.

Best,
Ron

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I gotchya.  GF stat = Biker stat.  We'll have to see how that works.  Definately makes the chargen more streamlined.  And Tyger, you are right, this is suposed to be a fast, quick-paced game.  I appreciate the feedback :)

Peace,

-Troy

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Actually, I'm thinking even more streamlined than that, Troy. I'm not saying GF status = biker status. I'm saying that girlfriends have no status. They don't use it and don't have it used against them, nothing.

Their actions, however, can affect the biker's use of his status.

Best,
Ron