Bang Map?

[Lisa Padol]

I grok R-maps, or at least, I think I do. Bangs and Kickers, not so much. That is, I think I get it, and I'm not worrying about the details vis. actual play until I've actually got players together, but I don't have this solid combination of confidence and experience.

So, I'm wondering if there's value in a thought experiment of taking a book or movie or whatever, and, instead of (or, if one likes, in addition to) plotting out the R-map as an exercise, listing the Kickers and Bangs.

-Lisa

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Unfortunately, Bangs and Kickers only sort of map to equivalents in other media like most books and film.

The difference, you see, is that role-playing doesn't produce an "edited product" that can then be picked up and delivered as the primary audience experience. One implication of this difference is that the beginning state of the protagonist in most prose and most film is carefully chosen after, or possibly simultaneously with, the Bang-equivalent is already known.

Whereas role-playing, especially for something like Sorcerer, only defines play as beginning "sometime around the first Bang." If I were to write a novel or a screenplay based on any of my best Sorcerer experiences, I'd probably choose a point to begin well before or well after our first session. I'd either want that first Bang to have a hell of a lot of lead-in development, or I'd want the story to begin in the haze/fallout of the aftermath of the first Bang.

You might do better, perhaps with mid-story Bangs as equivalents for comparison. I do not recommend, at all, actually lifting such things from other sources into your Sorcerer GMing. That is so full of bad pitfalls I cannot even bear to list them. You should be using the "story bullseye" on the backs of the character sheets instead - and ah-ha, now I realize the source of your anxiety. You don't have those yet, do you? Of course you're puzzled about Bangs, then. Without those, no Bangs.

But sure, observe such events as "Alien Queen swipes Newt" in Aliens, to understand how they set up protagonist decisions. This is research, not prep.

Don't talk yourself into madness, though. A good Bang feels so natural to the player that he or she often does not even recognize the character's reaction as a decision. That's why they're hard to explain - they are key crisis open-ended situations, but in retrospect or even in the midst of playing the character, what the character does feels inevitable.

By the way, Lisa? A Sorcerer GMing secret for you ... all scene resolutions, most especially the key rolls in a scene once they're made, are effectively Bangs if you want to use them that way.

Best,
Ron

[Lisa Padol]

Whereas role-playing, especially for something like Sorcerer, only defines play as beginning "sometime around the first Bang." If I were to write a novel or a screenplay based on any of my best Sorcerer experiences, I'd probably choose a point to begin well before or well after our first session. I'd either want that first Bang to have a hell of a lot of lead-in development, or I'd want the story to begin in the haze/fallout of the aftermath of the first Bang.

<nod> The book I just finished, McKillip's Od Magic would make a lousy RPG session if one were so foolish as to try to reproduce it. Oh, I may take elements for Cthulhupunk, and I'm sure you could do interesting things with the R-map, at which point it would, quite properly, bear no resemblence to the book. I was mentally running through the various characters and their Kickers, and, no, it doesn't map at all, at all. One guy has a theoretical kicker -- in the first chapter, he's told to go to a magician's school and work as a gardner. Except that, while a fine kicker for a book, it feels completely wrong for Sorcerer. Except that, well, what I would consider more of an actual kicker happened to him a year before he's told to go to that school. Not a problem in a novel -- this is all backstory covered in two pages. Different media, doesn't map.

You might do better, perhaps with mid-story Bangs as equivalents for comparison. I do not recommend, at all, actually lifting such things from other sources into your Sorcerer GMing. That is so full of bad pitfalls I cannot even bear to list them. You should be using the "story bullseye" on the backs of the character sheets instead - and ah-ha, now I realize the source of your anxiety. You don't have those yet, do you? Of course you're puzzled about Bangs, then. Without those, no Bangs.

I do realize you cannot lift a Bang per se. Looking at The Fall of the Kings , every Bang that comes to mind is so character centered that it is impossible to lift -- I would have to require that my players play those exact characters exactly as Kushner and Sherman wrote them, and that would be utterly absurd. The fact that the Bangs are so character centered is what makes the novel good, and what makes me say, "I want Bangs like those, where they flow logically from the characters."

I am not trying to decide on which Bangs I'll use. Can't do that without character creation, and I don't want to play before playing.

But sure, observe such events as "Alien Queen swipes Newt" in Aliens, to understand how they set up protagonist decisions. This is research, not prep.

Exactly.

Don't talk yourself into madness, though. A good Bang feels so natural to the player that he or she often does not even recognize the character's reaction as a decision. That's why they're hard to explain - they are key crisis open-ended situations, but in retrospect or even in the midst of playing the character, what the character does feels inevitable.

Thanks. That's exactly the element I want, and I think I knew that, but I didn't have the words for it.

By the way, Lisa? A Sorcerer GMing secret for you ... all scene resolutions, most especially the key rolls in a scene once they're made, are effectively Bangs if you want to use them that way.

Hm. I understand the words, and I get the theory, but I'll have to play before it sinks in and clicks.

-Lisa

[James_Nostack]

Hi Lisa,

I think Ron's advice is pretty good, but sometimes you can do what you're talking about pretty well.  For me, applying the kickers & bangs technique to Star Wars Ep 3 was the big light-bulb moment, and everything made sense after that.  (It helps in a sense because that whole movie is about, "What will this guy do now?  Okay, how about now?"  Which is one way to do bangs.)

So -- here's my take on that movie as if it were a game (which, yes, I know it's not).  SPOILERS, etc......

Kicker - Anakin's player wants to do this kick-ass space fleet battle scene, where he runs in and rescues the Chancellor from evil Separatist kidnappers!  And whammo, gets a chance at revenge on the guy who mutilated him in the prior movie.

Bang 1 - "You're PREGNANT?!"  Okay, so, you've got this secret forbidden marriage thing--and it can't be kept secret any longer.  Revealing it will ruin your career; concealing it will ruin your wife's.  To make matters worse, you have a prophetic dream that the pregnancy might kill her.  Now what?  (Hint: apparently it will not occur to you to (a) see a doctor, (b) get an abortion, or (c) ask your wife for advice.)

Bang 2 - Your bosses turn you down for promotion... but want you to commit treason by spying on the Chancellor, who has always befriended you.  Your bosses are supposed to be these wise, goody-goody people... but it looks like they might be plotting a coup.

Bang 3 - Your buddy the Chancellor indicates that he knows evil magic that can save your wife.  In fact, the Chancellor--who is, like, the most powerful guy in the galaxy--is the evil mastermind of the Sith cult who has been trying to destroy you and your bosses.  But he can save your wife's life.  What do you do?

Bang 4 - After telling your bosses about this, they decide to depose the Chancellor and tell you to stay out of it because your loyalty is compromised.  But dang!  Your bosses aren't necessarily trustworthy either!  So, you show up right when the Big Boss is about to friggin' assassinate the Chancellor--saying the poor old man is too dangerous to stand trial!  The Chancellor is evil, but he's begging you for mercy--what do you do?

(Anakin loses a lot of Humanity, and we get some bangs for other characters for a little bit, as they discover what's going on.)

Bang 5 - Now that you've turned to the Dark Side, here comes your wife to argue you out of it.  How do you handle this?  Do you reform, or cling to your decision?  Why?

Bang 6 - Your mentor shows up and wants to kill you for what you've done.  You've always resented him, and now is your chance to demolish him.

======
Okay, so I've taken some liberties here, but for me watching the movie I finally figured out how bangs work, and what they would look like in a game.  You go full-out, whole hog with relentless pacing, pushing sympathetic characters into increasingly harrowing choices.  And the interesting question isn't necessarily what choice they make--but why they make it.

[Mike Holmes]

James has a point, but there's an obvious problem with his bangs. That is, they often assume that some previous event has occured. For instance that Anakin goes over to the dark side. That's not really something you're going to force on the player. So you can't assume it'll happen. Now, sometimes I write conditional bangs that are predicated on "If this happens." That's fine. But you can see why Ron's suggestion is to take from the pressures early in the story if at all. Because what you're looking for is those that can happen with just GM input. Not relying on the player to do any particular thing.

But worse than all of this is that you have to be sure that you can plug a PC in as Anakin. That is, the usual R-Map technique is the "encounter the R-map" technique where the PC is not really on the map at all to start. The map merely grabs the PCs and sends them moving. If you can't plug a player into the map as Anakin, then none of these bangs will be pertinent, obviously.

So while I think that an exercise like James' is interesting, it's not a real exercise. Take a set of real PCs, and then look at Star Wars and try this. You'll see it's a whole different ball game. Usually it's much better to simply ignore the source once your done making the map, and then use Ron's diagram as he points out, or something like it, to come up with your own bangs that apply to the situation in question. Otherwise you end up doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to get things to work. Believe me, I've made this mistake, and it's just not worth it.

Mike

[Lisa Padol]

James has a point, but there's an obvious problem with his bangs. That is, they often assume that some previous event has occured. For instance that Anakin goes over to the dark side. That's not really something you're going to force on the player. So you can't assume it'll happen. Now, sometimes I write conditional bangs that are predicated on "If this happens." That's fine. But you can see why Ron's suggestion is to take from the pressures early in the story if at all. Because what you're looking for is those that can happen with just GM input. Not relying on the player to do any particular thing.

Oh yes -- but this is a different exercise. I'm trying to get a sense of what Bangs are, and this is a very useful way to do it. It's also useful to see the different types. Fr'ex, if Anakin is a PC, "Anakin goes dark" is simply not a Bang the GM can assume will happen.

But worse than all of this is that you have to be sure that you can plug a PC in as Anakin. That is, the usual R-Map technique is the "encounter the R-map" technique where the PC is not really on the map at all to start. The map merely grabs the PCs and sends them moving. If you can't plug a player into the map as Anakin, then none of these bangs will be pertinent, obviously.

Absolutely. And consider this one:

Padme is pregnant.

Now, is Anakin a PC? Is Padme? Is the pregnancy a Bang or a Kicker? For me, it is very useful to see the questions this example raises. It does not matter that I don't plan to run SW III. What matters to me is that I'm starting to see how this whole thing works in an absolutely-no-pressure-I'm-not-running-this sort of way.

This may be obvious to everyone. But for me, I'm watching the lightbulbs go on.

If we've just started the game, Padme's pregnancy might be a Kicker. If so, it's coming from the player.

If we're in mid-game, and Anakin is a PC, but Padme isn't, Padme's pregnancy is a Bang I can preload. They're already having sex.

If Padme is a PC, whether or not Anakin is, I need to think carefully about this one. I'm just not as comfortable springing it on Padme's player without checking to make sure it's cool by the player. Whether this is or isn't silly of me, it's good to know that it's an issue.

If both are NPCs, then what I'm deciding is how much of this is relevant to the PCs, and when. This determines my timing on the pregnancy -- before the game starts or during the game -- and, indeed, whether I want to use that thread at all. It may or may not be a Bang. This depends entirely on the players' relationships with the NPCs. If Obi-Wan is a PC, it's, um. I'm not sure what to call it. A hidden Bang? It's something that affects his relationship with NPC Anakin, whether he knows about it or not.

And so on.

So while I think that an exercise like James' is interesting, it's not a real exercise.

Gotta disagree with you there. As I said, it's useful for seeing what folks consider Bangs, which of these Bangs are of the pre-loadable variety, what has to come out of character -- and, as important, it's keeping me from going over the material I've prepared and that I absolutely must not go over and over until I've actually got players sitting down making characters.

Or maybe, we're saying the same thing differently. This is not an exercise that will give me a set of Bangs to plug in for my group. I get that.

-Lisa

[Judd]

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=123848

This is an RPG.net thread called You Kick, We Bang, in which one person puts in a kicker and others put in bangs.

Maybe it will help.

Movies are an odd place to mine for kickers and bangs, sometimes you can see how it would apply but its often problematic.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I think you have your head on straight about the issue, Lisa. Your points about "who's a player-character" demonstrate exactly the right sort of thinking.

Everyone else, it's time to quit iffing and butting. She's got it. Discussion's over.

Best,
Ron

[Lisa Padol]

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=123848

This is an RPG.net thread called You Kick, We Bang, in which one person puts in a kicker and others put in bangs.

Maybe it will help.

Movies are an odd place to mine for kickers and bangs, sometimes you can see how it would apply but its often problematic.

Thanks. For my part, I like looking at books, but it's easier to be sure someone's seen X movie than read X book.

Josh and I were talking about the first Indiana Jones movie and the second Lara Croft movie. (Haven't seen the first.) In both, there's really the same kicker: Something ancient and powerful and utterly tempting to the archaeologist has just reared its head.

Josh asked about the whole opening sequence of Lost Ark, but that's not the Kicker. In rpg terms -- yes, I know it doesn't map -- that sequence is backstory. It's Indy's player giving the GM a nemesis NPC to play with. The Kicker is when Indy learns that the Ark's out there and the Germans are looking for it.

I think finding out that the Old Flame Who's Ticked At Him is the only one he can go to for the information he needs is a Bang.

Josh noted that the second Lara Croft movie has almost exactly that same Bang.

-Lisa

[Lisa Padol]

Caveat to McKillip Fans: SPOILERS FOR OD MAGIC

Od Magic is a book I can pick apart for Kickers. It's not a source I would lift whole. There are one or two elements I might lift, pure plot, and I'm more likely to lift them for Cthulhupunk than for Sorcerer. So, not really worried about trying to copy the book.

The fun part was talking with Josh about the various Kickers. So, we have:

1. Brenden Vetch. He shows up in the first chapter, and is oddly absent for much of the novel, considering he seems to be one of the protagonists. He's an herbalist. He kept most of his village from dying of some illness, but wasn't able to save his parents. His brother went off shortly after. He got a lover, but she left a year or so after. Neither are ever seen again in the novel. Od, a Really Powerful Wizard, tells him to go to her school and become a gardner.

Od telling him to do this is not, IMO, the Kicker. Or, at best, it's half the Kicker. The Kicker, IMO, happens a year earlier, when his girlfriend leaves and he almost does -- something. He has no idea what, but he knows and she knows that he almost unleashed something powerful, and they're both scared shitless by this. For him, this is a story about coming to terms with the power he can wield.

2. Princess Sulys. Her Kicker is that she's just found out she's to be married to the her father's favored wizard. There's a whole chapter or so of stuff about her before this happens, but that's backstory.

3. and 4. Arneth, the Quarter Warden and Mistral, the Magician's Daughter. They have complimentary Kickers.

Josh thought that Arneth's Kicker was that he was in love with Mistral. It isn't -- that's a mid-story Bang. The Kicker is that his father has told him to investigate Tyramin, Mistral's father, a magician newly arrived in the city.

Mistral's Kicker is that Arneth, the Quarter Warden, is investigating Tyramin, her father.

Each of them have a mid-story Bang: They fall in love.

Now, if both Arneth and Mistral are PCs, there is no way that a GM has any business preloading the "They fall in love" Bang. Encouraging, maybe. Mandating, no.

If both are NPCs, the GM can declare it by fiat. Whether it's actually a Bang depends on whether this has any effect on the people who are PCs.

If only one is a PC -- say, Mistral --, the GM can have as a Bang "Arneth falls in love with Mistral", but not "Mistral falls in love with Arneth". Whether and how far in advance the GM should load this Bang, under what cricumstances should it be considered at all -- all separate questions.

5. Yar, a wizard. His Kicker is that he realizes, some chapters into the novel, that he's not satisfied with where he is in life. This is a more interesting Kicker than it may appear, since what it means is that he's questioning how and what wizards are taught and what they should be permitted to do. Since all of that is mandated by the king, his dissatisfaction could be considered treasonous.

Again, it doesn't matter how many chapters it takes Yar to reach that point. That is his Kicker. Before that, he's just there. Okay, this is not a problem in a novel. It's called character development. But, if Yar is a Sorcerer PC, this is where his story begins.

6. Ceta, Yar's lover. I think that her Kicker is realizing that Yar is not happy with his situation, and that this may lead him to do things that could be considered treasonous. It forces her to take a position -- does she side with her lover, or with her cousin, the king's favorite wizard and soon-to-be son-in-law?

Josh thinks her Kicker is that she has learned something interesting in her research on Od. I disagree. That's her function in the novel, sure, but it's not exactly her Kicker. It's a late story Bang.

We both agree that Ceta's player is clearly one of those with a variable schedule, often leaving early or arriving late.

One Bang is that the king's wizard learns about Brenden. How scriptable/preloadable this is is an interesting question. It relies on Yar's decision not to mention Brenden -- player's choice -- and on a meeting between Brenden and wizard -- GM choice. It changes everything because the King's Wizard has learned about a powerful untrained man and has learned that Yar is keeping secrets that he thinks the king should know.

One mid- to late- story Bang is: Princess Sulys vanishes. For Sulys and Ceta, it doesn't change anything, at least, at first. They just wandered off, never even leaving the palace.

For Yar, it means that he is told to find Brenden NOW. Did the mysterious Brenden have something to do with the disappearance? He is in the same quarter as the newly arrived Magician that the king wants investigated.

For Arneth, it means that he is told to bring back Tyramin NOW. After all, Tyramin may be behind the princess' disappearance. It means that Mistral has some difficult choices to make.

It doesn't simplify matters when -- the GM is clearly running with what the players are giving her -- Brenden is mistaken for Tyramin by a crowd out for entertainment.

For Brenden, it means that suddenly, everyone is after him, and he's got this immense power rising, and he doesn't know what he should do.

When Sulys resurfaces with Ceta, the situation she was familiar with has changed because of the "Sulys disappears" Bang, and she and Ceta have a whole bunch of choices to make.

Sulys' disappearance is not preloaded. It is due to her own -- and her hypothetical player's -- decision.

I'm telling you, the thing practically mapped itself in my head as I read it. And the R-map! Far from the most complicated, but it fits the story perfectly.

This may be the best thing McKillip's written since the Riddlemaster trilogy. Of course, she's written a whole lot of really good books, so it's a tricky call.

-Lisa