[Fifth World] Pools

[Brennan Taylor]

I am currently working on my variation of The Shadow of Yesterday, called The Fifth World. One of the things I am messing with is the Pools, and here is what I have at the moment:

Pools
Pools are resources the player can spend during the game in order for their character to push harder, do more, and perform amazing feats. There are three pools: Inside, Outside, and Renown.

The Inside pool represents the character's connection to his community and clan. Characters with a high Inside pool are often known as well-connected, deferential, charismatic, and smooth operators. The more a character tries to improve his standing in the community and move up in kiva society rank, the higher his Inside pool will grow.

The Outside pool represents the character's alienation from the People. Characters with a high Outside pool are often creepy, off-putting, aggressive, introverted, and cantankerous. The more transgressive acts (crimes) the character commits, the higher this pool grows. These dice can be used in conflicts, but they will have later negative consequences when used.

The Renown pool represents the character's fame. Characters with a high renown pool are often brash, arrogant, boastful, and eager for fame. Renown is often important for increasing ranks in kiva societies. Renown is neither outside nor inside, but can lead in either direction.

Pools are measured in points, and each pool ranges from one to infinite points, although a pool of more than 10 points is highly unusual. During the game, these points are spent to get bonus dice or activate Secrets (more on all of this below), but are not permanently gone. The scores on each player's character sheet represent the maximum points in each pool, and players will get a chance to restore their characters' pools to their maximum.

Whenever an attribute is not at its full level, it can be refreshed, restoring it to its full level by the character performing an in-game action.

The Inside pool is refreshed by engaging in community-building: chatting, helping your neighbor, doing maintenance around the village, doing a favor for someone, giving a gift, etc.

The Outside pool is refreshed by isolating oneself, spurning neighbors or family, and generally acting antisocial.

Renown is refreshed by bragging about one's exploits.

These pools differ in a fundamental way from the original pools in TSOY, in that you could conceivably use any pool for a given task. The only thing that would differ would be the methods used to perform the task, for example, if you wanted to eliminate a rival, each pool would be called on as follows:

If you decided to sneak up on top of a house and shoot your rival in the back with an arrow, then try to skulk away, you would use your outside pool.

If you decided to go to the center of town and pick a fight with him and win, then you could use your renown pool.

If you wanted to get the community to turn against him, and execute him for a crime, then you would use your inside pool.

What does everyone think of this, and what problems would you foresee with this kind of pool method?

[Twobirds]

I've only recently gotten into Shadow of Yesterday, but this is my gut reaction...

Hearing the descriptions makes me want to say, as a player, "Oh, there's a 'good' pool, an 'evil' pool, and a 'fame' pool."  Which doesn't seem to be what you're aiming for at all.  Saying a pool only goes up when someone commits crimes is limiting its potential pretty severely.  One of the things I liked about the 'stats' in SoY is that everyone's got 'em, and everyone uses them (as long as you're a Platonist), and everyone does things that would be considered 'refreshing' them.  Your Inside and Outside pools go in opposite directions, SoY pools go at right angles to each other.

I think most people are going to concentrate on one or the other, not simply prefer one to the other, but still keep them balanced, as in SoY.

They seem more like 'competitive' and 'cooperative' pools.  Depending on what you're doing, or simply your overall goal, you can use bonus dice.  They don't strike me, off the bat, as replacements for SoY attributes.  They seem more supplementary.  Even so, it's pretty cool to have a "Works well with others" stat.  It's just that waving a sword around should have some other 'character impetus' besides how many presents you give at Christmas.  WHY you're swinging the sword is why you get the bonus.  Someone who's defending his town gets a Cooperative bonus, someone's who fighting to keep his secrets gets a Competitive bonus.

I do like the idea of a Renown pool.  I'm sure that what Inigo used in his duels.  And I don't think an adventurer giving hope to sick children in a hospital by telling them stories of his exploits is 'bragging'.  He's just not ashamed of his name.  'Bragging' attaches a moral quality, which I would hesitate to do.  If it was me, I mean.

[Rob Donoghue]

I'm torn. I like the idea of more abstract pools as a way to add flavor to a game.  I would, for example, find it very interesting to have a samurai game which has "honor" and "face" pools, and much hanging off the balance of those.

However, the specific examples given all seem closer to things I would use keys to represent.  They're interesting elements of play certainly (Relationship with your community? Renown? Hell yeah, good stuff) but as described, I don't have a sense of what makes them interesting - specifically, I don't see what they do to say "_this_, right here, is what the story is about."  I mean, if the driving force in the setting is the conflict between Inner and Outer, then hell, definitely, hook it in, put it in the middle of things.  If it's just one element among many, then I see less need.  (Of course, if it _is_ all about this conflict, I'd be tempted to say that they should be handled like some of the Fading Suns trait - having one high means having the other at low, and vice versa).

Similarly, if the game is really _about_ renown, then absolutely have a pool.  If the game centers around each character writing their own legend through their deeds, then having a pool that represents the growth of that legend would be _awesome_.  However, if you just want a yardstick for popularity, I don't think I'd go with a pool.

So, sight unseen, I dunno.  It seems like too much to have all 3 new pools.  Inside vs Outside I can see, and Renown I can see, but all three doesn't create a natural seeming grouping for me (though maybe it's more natural in the setting).  Beyond the fact that these are clever in and of themselves, what are they contributing to your idea of the game?

-Rob D.

[James_Nostack]

Hi Brennan!  Definitely try it!  I think this would alter certain aspects of the game to make "party" style play difficult, since characters might be "all Inside" or "all Outside," but the 'party' per se not a necessary part of SOY.

To be honest, I think it would be a lot cooler to split up skills based on pools-- so, for a fishing tribe, Swim might be an Inside skill, while Climbing might be Outside, and Hunting might be Fame or something.  Same deal with various fighting skills. 

As written, the World of Near stresses a lot of cultural contact and collision, but it's not strongly written into the mechanics.  Your proposal might work for Near as well as your own setting.

Try it and report back to us!

[Brennan Taylor]

Your Inside and Outside pools go in opposite directions, SoY pools go at right angles to each other.

I see your points here. However, the Outside concept was already in the game, and I think it is better reinforced, mechanically, by the pool. These tie in very closely to character advancement in my variation, so there will be some strong incentives to pay attention to these.

You are right, these really go to motivation, rather than type of action like the old pool system.

I mean, if the driving force in the setting is the conflict between Inner and Outer, then hell, definitely, hook it in, put it in the middle of things.

That's right, Rob. This is the central theme of the game, which is why I thought these would be appropriate pools. Pool level is going to tie into kiva society membership, too (a sort of "class" system for the game). These influences are going to be what it's all about, and the tensions between the pools should be a focus of play.

The main problem I am foreseeing right now is the incentive to use the Outside pool. It's effects and origins are primarily negative, so there needs to be a compelling temptation. If not, no one will touch it and all the characters will all be strutting good Samaritans. I am trying to think of a good way to make this a tough choice for characters in play.

[Rob Donoghue]

Well, setting wise, what is the temptation to go outside the culture?  In some ways, it's the core question of most adventure games (Why don't you just get a job instead of, y'know, risk life and limb for minimal rewards) boiled down to something very specific.

One thought: It strikes me that Inside actions may be less about what's _good for_ the community, and perhaps might be more about what's _acceptable to_ the community.  This intrinsically sets up Inside as conservative and outside as more radical, but it definitely suggests more ways in which the pools can bring to bear.  The fact that a character who wants to change the Inside for it's own good may still well be using the Outside pool, since change comes from the outside.

Even if that's not a good match, I suspect that once you can say why people would be tempted by the outside, you can come up with a mechanical reflection of it.

-Rob D.