[D&D] Good solid gamism?

[Mike Holmes]

Eric, you're interpreting the shared language here at The Forge by your own personal definitions. So this is what the conversation looks like to me.

Mike: Dogs have four legs.
Eric: But dogs are birds, so therefore they have two legs.
Mike: Dogs are not birds by any definition I know of.
Eric: Well I disagree.

Until we're speaking the same language, we're not going to get anywhere. The point is that you only disagree with me where your own personal definitions of things vary from that used by everyone else here.


Rob, cut-scening itself can support just about any agenda if done right. Or sometimes it's "zilchplay," which is activity in a RPG that doesn't support any mode, and perhaps storytelling. By which I mean that it ceases to be role-playing at all for a moment, and becomes a typical passive (for the player) entertainment activity. You don't participate in those cut-scenes in FFX, right? It's like watching a cartoon or movie. An interlude of this sort of activity into the otherwise interactive activity.

Nothing wrong with that at all, it's just not "play" itself in any way that needs CA analysis.

Mike

[contracycle]

So, if this isn't sim... what would a sim-oriented player want here? If I was a sim-oriented player who'd just been dragged through a dungeon crawl, what would I want to do once I got out? (Assume I've never heard the word 'incoherence' and don't have much ability to observe the responses of the other players.)

To see whats there.

[Eric J.]

Mike, this is what it looks like to me:

Eric: A dog can be many things.  It is a pet but it can also be other things as well.
Mike: A dog is only a pet.  The best way to raise a dog is to treat it like a pet.  You're thinking of a bird.
Eric: I didn't even mention birds.  I'm not talking about birds or even about raising dogs for that matter.  I suspect that this specific dog is a pet but acts like a bird.  How should we deal with that?
Mike: You're wrong and you know nothing about raising dogs.

I'm not trying to make any points about Creative Agenda or RPG theory.  I don't even care.  I can't dissagree with you about matters of theory since I'm not making points about that.  I don't even think I'm dissagreeing with you in general.  I made the assumption that most games (particuarly this game) involve more than one mode.  I still believe that but I'm not going to argue that here.

The only thing I'm talking about is how to have better actual play.  Some people commented on the reasons to eliminate character death.  You made some good points.  I countered with some reasons why not to have character death.  That's it.  I'm pulling out of any discussions of creative agenda for this thread.

May the wind be always at your back,
-Pyron

[Mike Holmes]

Mike, this is what it looks like to me:

Yes, now you understand. Different languages. I suggest you learn ours. Because we're not learning yours. This is a community, and we can't learn the new language of evrybody who comes along and wants us all to speak like they do.

I'm not trying to make any points about Creative Agenda or RPG theory.

Yes you are. Or, well, it sure seems like it when you use the terms and make claims that all three CAs are in every game. I made some assertions, in fact, and you came in and refuted them on GNS grounds. Or, at least using what are GNS terms in our language.

In any case, since the topic of the post is a GNS one, (again, see the title), it's certainly on topic to be addressing that.

I'm pulling out of any discussions of creative agenda for this thread.

That solves the problem then, I guess...

Mike

[Callan S.]

Hi Rob,

Yes, cut scenes are an excellent example of an investment inspiring technique! It's probably anti roleplay to many traditional players though "If I can't do anything, then it's not roleplay and I simply must not invest in anything there". It's probably a battered gamer syndrome thing...cut scenes are supposed to tease the players (like the principles behind a strip tease), but many poor GM's drag them out as much as they like, excluding any actual play. To put it crudely, that's blueballing rather than a tease.

So, if this isn't sim... what would a sim-oriented player want here? If I was a sim-oriented player who'd just been dragged through a dungeon crawl, what would I want to do once I got out? (Assume I've never heard the word 'incoherence' and don't have much ability to observe the responses of the other players.)

It'd need to be more than a cut scene for the simulationist, because they are actively probing for the causal linkages of the game world. They are figuring out how things work, or even don't work. I remember a game fiction sample from blue planet, where a character describes standing on a beach of an alien water world for the first time and thinking "You expect to hear sea gulls". I think it's an example of figuring out how things work and how much things work differently that shows the quite poignant power of sim play. Note: My poor description might have ruined that a bit.

[Ron Edwards]

Rob,

How're you doing with this thread? Is the discussion serving your purpose in starting it? If so, continue with great joy.

Best,
Ron

[Rob Alexander]

Hi Ron,

Yeah, it's been interesting so far, and people have made insightful comments about the game and my preferences.

I suspect that it will probably go quiet now, though, unless anyone has any more specific comments to make.....


yours,
rob