[Shamble and Moan] I accidentally wrote a 24hr zombie game.

[Eric Provost]

While I was working the other day I had a game idea jump from my noggin right to paper in no time flat.  It's inspired both by 80's zombie flicks and by modern zombie survival-horror games like Resident Evil.  I intend for it to be a gamist design where the characters work to accumulate the resources that they'll need to get out of the city alive before sunrise.  I expect a group of 4-6 players to be able to play an entire game in maybe 4 hours (give or take) which will include everything from each character meeting their first zombie to the survivors of the night escaping the town at sunrise.  I put up a .doc copy here for you to check out.

I've stolen liberally from The Mountain Witch and The Shab-al-Hiri Roach for tricks and techniques.  Cards and agendas and scene/Act structure all came from those two games.

There's still lots to do to turn what I have into a functional and balanced game, but as what I have came out in less than a 24-hour period I thought that it was worthy of sharing with everyone here.

If I can polish this pile into a fun game then I intend to publish it to a pretty little .pdf for free distribution.  Maybe I'll twist some e-arms to try to get a friend or two to do some zombie doodles to pretty it up some.  I'm really hoping to get this baby done and out of my head in the next week or two.  It's a fairly simple game and there's no reason why it shouldn't be complete and ready to play in that amount of time.

I'm sure that I must have missed some stuff in the translation between the pile of scribbles I made while on the plane and the typing, and there's so much left to flesh out, that I'll greatly appreciate any time you take to look it over.  It's short and, I think, to the point.

-Eric

[Jason Morningstar]

Eric, this so rules.  I love zombies.

Some random thoughts upon a first reading:

Either set a hard limit (I suggest 2) to the number of PCs who will survive the evening, under any circumstances.  Make this clear and it adds a nice frisson of dog-eat-dog to the whole affair.  Also thematically appropriate.  The other way to do this would be to have the group reach consensus on a number of final survivors, with the stipulation that it can be, at most, n-1 with n being the number of PCs.  Better yet, have them decide in secret on the # of final survivors, and the game continues until all the survivors have a number equal to their remaining population.  Then they narrate their escape.  Game over.  Of course, you can always pick "1" as your secret number...

What's the GM for?  I always ask that.  Strictly necessary?

I love the agendas, very zombie movie, but they need to be written so that it is plausible that they could be kept under wraps - whatsit is problematic (a bit).  You could combine it with still alive! to refer to a precious object (object, in this context, meaning person, pet, launch codes, whatever). 

DEFINITELY go with an ecology of archetypes a la tMW zodiacs.  That will be great and stir up instant conflict.

Act I seems redundant and slows the flow of the game.  Why not require Act II to begin the game, with each survivor recounting their past adventure up to that point? 

Lovin' it,

Jason

[Darcy Burgess]

Hi Eric --

I'd characterize myself as a burgeoning fan of the genre, but I'll open my fool yap anyway.

I'll more or less add a "me too" to everything that Jason brought up, but will throw in a dissenting voice on one issue:

Agendas.
As it stands, pretty much all of the agendas are "the same thing" -- a reason to take off on your own, maybe bring someone along with you.  It would be nice to mix things up a bit and give them different feels.  Maybe one way is to think about ways that the agendas could affect things other than character choices .

frinst:
"mindlessly competitive"
could be used to gain a mechanical bonus by not mentioning to the other alpha male that the door he's meant to guard hasn't been locked.  In other words, taking a little GM power and narrating in a conflict.

That's the general critique.

The specific critique is for the Hero agenda.  This one's completely dependent on the GM giving you a scene that it'll work with.  Why not include the power to frame such a scene as part of the agenda, thus keeping it in line with "messing with the other characters".

So, in essence, I think that the Agendas work best if they imbue the player with some temporary GM power -- the ability to put something into the SIS with no vetting, no veto, no whining.  Eat it.

Just a thought

[Jason Morningstar]

Agendas.
As it stands, pretty much all of the agendas are "the same thing" -- a reason to take off on your own, maybe bring someone along with you.  It would be nice to mix things up a bit and give them different feels.  Maybe one way is to think about ways that the agendas could affect things other than character choices .

Agreed.  I figure that this will get fixed as the game develops. 

Eric, if it helps I own a heapin' helpin' of zombie movies.  I think watching some iconic favorites while trying to tease out the various agendas of the protagonists would help a lot.  Plus, you get to watch a bunch of zombie movies.  I think it would also be smart for you to decide what this genre is about to you, you know?

I think there is also a difference between agenda and circumstances - "pregnant", for example, is not really an agenda (everybody wants to survive for some reason, this is just one of those), but it is a relevant and interesting circumstance for everybody. 

Another random thought:

The game needs to reward martyrdom.  It'd be awesome of characters could be "marked for death" so that the player knew he wasn't going to make it - his satisfaction would come from finding the perfect place for that last stand, buying time for those fated to survive. This could actually develop during play - a martyrdom meter or something.  Maybe players can see it coming and craft their "departure scene" to be meaningful and fun.

--Jason

[Jason Morningstar]

If I could edit my posts I'd say that the character of CJ in the Dawn of the Dead remake is a great example of martyrdom in action - you're really rooting for him until the bitter end, but he's just not fated to make it.  Finally he's like "fuck it, this is where I go down", and he saves everybody's bacon as he gets eaten.  Your game has to encourage that sort of thing and make it fun as hell, because it is an absolute staple. 

[Darcy Burgess]

Jason --

The martyrdom thing sounds like a great idea, simply because it is such a good element of the genre (I particularly like Ed's end in Shaun of the Dead -- also some good martyrdom, but without the "leadup").

But here's the tough question:
how do you make it worth it to the player -- what's the payoff after the character is dead?

in other words, how do they keep their fingers in the pie?

[Jason Morningstar]

You could take a page from the Mountain Witch there, but I think it would also be cool to have them join the GM, perhaps bringing back their now-zombified PC as an NPC badass. 

There are is an FPS mod for Half-Life (http://www.zombiepanic.org/site/index.php) that operates on this principle - play starts with n humans and 1 zombie, but every time a human dies, he respawns as a zombie.  Eventually it is 1 human and n zombies, and then it is all zombies and you re-start. 

[Marc Majcher]

You could take a page from the Mountain Witch there, but I think it would also be cool to have them join the GM, perhaps bringing back their now-zombified PC as an NPC badass. 

This is exactly the strategy the The Dead Walk! uses, and though it hasn't been properly playtested, it feels like it should work splendidly in any zombie RPG that exposes the player characters to a high risk of death.  My copy of TMW just showed up, so hopefully I'll have a little time soon to read through those rules, and shamelessly steal some polish from there...

[Eric Provost]

Yay!  Zombie fans!

Lemmie hit your specific feedback points first, then I'll get my ass up out of this uncomfortable hotel bed to grab my notes and I can talk about what I wrote last night.

Either set a hard limit (I suggest 2) to the number of PCs who will survive the evening, under any circumstances.  Make this clear and it adds a nice frisson of dog-eat-dog to the whole affair.  Also thematically appropriate.  The other way to do this would be to have the group reach consensus on a number of final survivors, with the stipulation that it can be, at most, n-1 with n being the number of PCs.  Better yet, have them decide in secret on the # of final survivors, and the game continues until all the survivors have a number equal to their remaining population.  Then they narrate their escape.  Game over.  Of course, you can always pick "1" as your secret number...

I want to do this, but in a roundabout way.  I expcect the early acts to include a bit of resource gathering, resources like weapons and The Will To Live, so finite resources would mean that there can be tasty-tasty fights over who controlls the resources going into the final act.  Everyone might survive, but it'll be pretty unlikely.

What's the GM for?  I always ask that.  Strictly necessary?

Yes.  Yes you do.  That's the way it came into my head, and that's the way it'll stay untill and unless I see a reason for it to change.  Maybe it's not necessary at all.  If I get to the point in the development where I start wondering this myself then it may come out.  In the meantime I've been asking myself the regular question of "Oh, so what strategic choices does the GM get?"  Answering that may end up answering your question too.

Act I seems redundant and slows the flow of the game.  Why not require Act II to begin the game, with each survivor recounting their past adventure up to that point? 

Funny, I thought that Act IV seemed like the lame duck.  Truth be told, I really want five acts for structure and balance.  What exactly happens in every act is still under construction.  And just because you asked this question I did a bunch of writing about what I expect to happen in Act I.  I expect to write up stuff for each of the Acts, because, as of right now, I think that the rules on scene-framing are going to be altered slightly from act to act.  Meaning that there will be a different pattern as to who's expected to frame scenes in each Act.

Agendas.
As it stands, pretty much all of the agendas are "the same thing" -- a reason to take off on your own, maybe bring someone along with you.  It would be nice to mix things up a bit and give them different feels.  Maybe one way is to think about ways that the agendas could affect things other than character choices .

Solid.  I had been thinking that my Agendas were kinda one-dimentional feeling.  I haven't come up with much new on them since yesterday, but I expect that this thought will be sitting in front of me when I do get to writing them.  The Agendas really do need distinct feels to them.  As Jason suggests, a good dose of zombie movies will probably do best to inspire new Agendas.

The specific critique is for the Hero agenda.  This one's completely dependent on the GM giving you a scene that it'll work with.  Why not include the power to frame such a scene as part of the agenda, thus keeping it in line with "messing with the other characters".

I think the solution to this will come out in the wash once the rules for scene framing are a little more concrete.

I think it would also be smart for you to decide what this genre is about to you, you know?

Well, here's the thing;  The genre is about a whole bunch of things to me.  This game can only be about one of those things.  In this particular instance it's about answering the question "Am I going to be one of the people that gets another day of life, or do I get my flesh consumed in a horribly disgusting manner?"  It's further about the balance between teamwork and selfishness.  Will you help the group get out alive or will you help yourself get out alive?

The game needs to reward martyrdom.

I agree, it is a staple.  But I don't think that addressing it directly will be the most satisfying solution.  Meaning, if there's a central mechanism in the game that has "martyr" stamped all over it then players might be led to believe that everyone should be considering becoming the martyr of the game.  And that thought contradicts the idea that the game is about making it out alive.  So, if being a martyr is going to be included in the game it needs to be concealed somewhere in the vs-Z combat mechanisms or possibly included as some form of Agenda.

...but I think it would also be cool to have them join the GM, perhaps bringing back their now-zombified PC as an NPC badass.

Gonna dissagree with you on that one.

I only kinda hinted at it in the text, but PCs will only be able to be killed in Act V.  It's a bit anti-genre, but I'm not willing to compromise on this point.  In earlier acts the characters may be mauled and taken out of the act, but not yet out of the game.


Ok.... so I was just reaching for my notes from last night, and I realize that I left them on the plane.  Dammit.  I guess it's time to shag my ass out of bed and get down to the gas station down the street to get a new notepad.

-Eric

[Jason Morningstar]

Well, here's the thing;  The genre is about a whole bunch of things to me.  This game can only be about one of those things.  In this particular instance it's about answering the question "Am I going to be one of the people that gets another day of life, or do I get my flesh consumed in a horribly disgusting manner?"  It's further about the balance between teamwork and selfishness.  Will you help the group get out alive or will you help yourself get out alive?

I agree, it is a staple.  But I don't think that addressing it directly will be the most satisfying solution.

Fair enough.  Certainly making martyrdom subtle and implicit (like honor in tMW) will be excellent and highly awesome.  But hard to do right!

I only kinda hinted at it in the text, but PCs will only be able to be killed in Act V.  It's a bit anti-genre, but I'm not willing to compromise on this point.  In earlier acts the characters may be mauled and taken out of the act, but not yet out of the game.

That's cool.  For the record I think you are short-changing your potential design by choosing "do you survive another day?" as your core theme.  It also contradicts the mechanic you are proposing!  We'll have to disagree.  I think this is what I was driving at with about-ness, and our ideas obviously differ.  For me zombie stories are about survival like Dogs is about battlin' demons.

--Jason

[Eric Provost]

For me zombie stories are about survival like Dogs is about battlin' demons.

That's cool.  For the record I think you are short-changing your potential design by choosing "do you survive another day?" as your core theme.

I have to wonder, and therefore ask, if you saw that bit of fine print under the title of the game?  That bit where I noted that this is a gamist attempt?  If I were to start from scratch and consider what zombie flicks really mean to me then construct a nar game from it, well, it'd really all center around that one Agenda I wrote; Carnal Impulses.  That game would center around everyone demonstrating who they really are when society isn't there to put a cap on their urges.

Problem is, that's not the game that jumped into my head last week while I was riding on an airplane.  This game, the one about demonstrating that you've got the ability to stay alive when the rest of the world is being eaten, this is what jumped into my noggin.  So, this is the one that I have to finish.  And soon I hope.

I'm off to the gas station to get my notepad now.

[Jason Morningstar]

I did see the 'Gamist' appellation, so maybe we're not on the same page regarding definitions.  Looking forward to seeing more as you develop this!  Let me know if you want to borrow a stack of DVDs. 

--Jason

[Eric Provost]

Ok, so forget the 'gamist' thing.  I never know if I'm using any of the terminology properly for conveying what's in my head anyway.  Instead, I'll say that the game in my head is about adressing the challenge of surviving the night the world turns to zombies.  One of the strategic choices that you're continually presented is the choice beteen cooperation and solo work.

If there's another potential theme to the game, I can't see it.  But that's probably just because of how the game came to me.  If you've got something to suggest, I'll be glad to hear it.  A fresh angle certainly can't hurt.

And I'd love to borrow a stack of DVDs. 

-Eric

[Jason Morningstar]

I guess I'm thinking about the Roach, which has a "gamey" if not gamist component - explicit victory condition, resources you are trying to gain, tactical decisions to be made.  But that stuff is supposed to be in the service of something else, you know?

When I think zombies I think riot-in-the-IKEA alienation, personally.  Maybe everybody should write a zombie heartbreaker.  Mine would be very formalized and procedural about who dies and when, and your fate would be based on what society thinks of you, and there would not be anything you could do to prevent it. 

I've got NotLD, DotD, the DotD remake, and 28 Days Later on hand.  I'll bring them to MACE if I remember! 

--Jason

[Kirk Mitchell]

I'll read the doc to see if I can come up with some comments. Expect some feedback later. I just wanted to pop up and say two things: a) I can do zombie drawings if you want, now that I'm free, and b) I think you need some dials. Straight up, the first question I have is whether its old-school zombies (grawr...shamble/moan/drag foot. Eat) or new-school zombies (Y'know, the fast fuckers. Pretty much Aliens, but with zombies). So maybe you give players the option to do that. Alternately you could have different breeds of zombies, but that seems too much like a computer game rather than a movie. Or you've already done something and my input is completely invalidated, but that's cool.

<goes out and watches Resident Evil>

Kirk