[In a Land Called] New Skool Sim

[timfire]

Currently there's a new round of Sim debate over in the GNS forum. As usual, there are calls for people to design new games that incorporate current ideas about Sim. Though I don't spell it out in my design documents, I wanted to bring it to people's attention that I consider my upcoming game, In a Land Called, to be such a game. Here are my current design documents:

[Main Document]
[Flowchart & Design Updates]

I know there are Nar systems in there, but I believe there's alot of New Skool Sim in there, too. If you didn't get it from reading my design documents, a big aspect of the design is that the players are responsible for giving meaning to game elements that I, the designer, outline in the book. Look at chargen, Setting Dials, and Symbols. My hope is that these systems will allow for a collabortive "Dream-building" experience.

What's everyone thoughts, especially from all the Sim lova's? Please remember, though, that this design is still a work in process, and I'm still trying to make the design the work the way I see it in my head.

[Mike Holmes]

Hmm. I'm creating something at this point that's not too dissimilar from this in some ways (very different than others). I think that there are parts of this that may support sim, but, as you say, new school. I think that the agenda that's produced will probably be overall narrativism, and most players wanting sim won't want this game. But that's not to say that it's not interesting. :-)

Call fallout "Despair" instead. Differentiates it from DitV, and makes it a good opposite for Hope.

Mike

[timfire]

I think that the agenda that's produced will probably be overall narrativism, and most players wanting sim won't want this game.

I think it'll end up being a hydrid. I see two aspects to play---there's the more minute-to-minute "we go around and do stuff, which ends up causing problems for people" which will be Nar. But then there's the long-term "we wander around exploring/discovering/creating the world" which I see as pretty Sim'y. Even if it ends up not being a good game for Sim'ists, at the very least it will be a chance to try out some of the newer ideas for how to support Sim.

Call fallout "Despair" instead. Differentiates it from DitV, and makes it a good opposite for Hope.

All terms are tentative. I'm aware of the potential for DitV "Fallout" confusion (& for Capes' "Debt" confusion).

[komradebob]

Would it be a hybrid, or a sim game that utilizes techniques from Narr games?

[Mike Holmes]

Would it be a hybrid, or a sim game that utilizes techniques from Narr games?

I'm thinking the opposite, Bob. Nar, with heavy sim support. Per the example in the nar essay.

Mike

[komradebob]

Would it be a hybrid, or a sim game that utilizes techniques from Narr games?

I'm thinking the opposite, Bob. Nar, with heavy sim support. Per the example in the nar essay.

Mike

"Hey Man, you got your Chocolate in my peanut butter!"

Either way, it looks like it has lots of potential. I'll have to take a second look at the example to see if I agree with your assessment overall. 'Course, it isn't like I hate the idea of Narr with heavy sim support, in any case.

[komradebob]

Would it be a hybrid, or a sim game that utilizes techniques from Narr games?

I'm thinking the opposite, Bob. Nar, with heavy sim support. Per the example in the nar essay.

Mike

Hey Mike, I went back and skimmed the essay, but am still confused. Could you point me to the part you're thinking of so I can get on the same page ( no pun intended)?

[Caldis]

I'm in agreement with Mike, this game is most likely to end up following a narrativist agenda.  Your section on Themes & Other Aspects of Play lays it out pretty clearly, the players are going to be making a narrativist choice whenever they decide to invoke connections and take fallout or not.  That'll end up turning all your other elements (symbols, character archetype's, etc.) into colour.  If you want to make it more sim (and a weaker game than you already have imo) remove debt and find a way to reward use of the symbols and character aspects.

 

[Tony Irwin]

Hi Timfire,

1) Have you considered how you might use time in your game? As a scarce resource it seems like a powerful way of focusing players' attention.

"Travelling to the Slave City means ignoring what's happening in the Mount of Dreams, which interests me most?"

"Fostering a connection with Megara means ignoring my relationship with the Cloud King, who am I more interested in?"

By pricing every action with time you force players to prioritse and commit to the aspect of the setting they're most interested in. I've framed this kind of choice as questions above, but really for me this is usually an instinctive gut recognition of the choice before me and an equally instinctive decision. Very rarely these choices do make me articulate and discuss them with whoever else is at the table, having to decide can be a strange combination of pleasure/pain.

There's potential for drift there, time can become a very powerful resource for players to use to judge "what matters" in a moral sense. Your game ends up saying to players: the world is falling apart, you can't be everywhere, where will you make your stand, who deserves your time most? That's on the road to narrativism.

So you need to assure the players that Slave City won't be destroyed if they ignore it and that the Cloud King won't dissapear from the setting if you ignore him, but they will be transformed into something else just as interesting but without player involvement. Now you're saying to players: the world isn't falling apart, but it is changing. Interesting things are happening all over the place, which one do you want to be involved in?

You aleady have some really fascinating mechanics for players changing situations and transforming the setting through their character actions during conflicts. A scarce resource (and time is good because it masquerades as a natural "in game" resource*) will force players to identify and pursue those situations and aspects of setting that interest them most.

2) In one session of play, where do you expect the moment of most fun to be located? Where will you look round expectantly at everyone's faces to see if they "got" what you just "got"? Where do you expect to feel most close and in touch with the other adults you're playing with?

3) Have you enjoyed sim play recently? What would you say you enjoyed most about it?

Tony

*I think that's key - you could be buying scenes with coins and thus forced to prioritise what you love most about the setting, but the very thought makes some people gag (not me, I like that). Time as a resource seems less of an artifice, less of a disruption, an actual and necessary part of what we're imagining. Sincere imaginers will want to pay respects to the concept of time in their game world and their character's actions.

[Mike Holmes]

Bob,

I refer you to the answer given by the right honorable gentleman (Caldis) moments before,

Mike

[timfire]

Hi everyone,

I've acknowledged that the game is going to be a hybrid. Let's ignore the Nar elements for now. I would like to discuss what I consider to be the "new skool" Sim elements. In particular, Setting Dials, Chargen, and Symbols. (I think Fallout/Hope might have some Sim value, too.)

For right now, I'm curious if people think that those elements will potentially scratch the Sim itch. As I said, what the design does is force the player to give meaning to prescribed elements. (This is basically bricolage, if I understand the term correctly.) Do y'all think that these elements need to be more Simmy?

Thanks! I'm not so much asking for suggestions as much as trying to get a discussion on Sim going, and asking how it might relate to this design.

[Mark Causey]

Hopefully I'm understanding the jargon and your request well enough, Timothy.

I think there's some room for growth in your Sim elements, and I feel something is lacking.

If I were going to add something in regards to making it more Simmy (which I understand to mean to have elements that 'act like' or 'celebrate' elements of the Simmed work or genre), I'd have it be in the Situation. You do already have a Narr element in that there is a way to turn a nameless faceless NPC or nameless town or whathaveyou more Connected to the player's character. What about a meta mechanic to dial in on the mood or severity of the Situation itself, in a Simmy way?

One facet of the games you're seeking to emulate that wasn't mentioned in your pdfs was Soundtrack. Now, I'm not asking you to have the players whistle or hum some appropriate theme music, but you might have them wager or decide amongst themselves what the framed Scene might be *about*. A dial for each (or only some?)  Scene(s) that could indicate what Connections could and couldn't be made, what Symbols could and couldn't be introduced, or what actions could or couldn't be taken to resolve a Conflict.

A- "You've travelled for days on birdback to reach the rebel city hideout, and have arrived, weary and dusty."
B- "I'd like to invoke a Disaster theme music, no Fighting subtones."
A- "Meaning maybe you've arrived too late, and they've been discovered by the Emperor's army?"
B- "Yeah, that'll work for me."
A- "Any objections or counter-Invocations?"

Again, hopefully I've tuned in on what you'd like focused on.

[Mike Holmes]

For right now, I'm curious if people think that those elements will potentially scratch the Sim itch. As I said, what the design does is force the player to give meaning to prescribed elements. (This is basically bricolage, if I understand the term correctly.) Do y'all think that these elements need to be more Simmy?

I think that it does allow a particular itch that I would call "simmy" to be itched, worldbuilding. But not that by Jay's definition (can't be bricloage because it voids the "character/world" opposition dynamic), it would actually be anti-sim. I think it's safe to say that at best it's a small sub-set of simulationism. To be really technical a technique that only supports a small sub-set of sim play.

What I'm saying is that it is, in and of itself a potentially interesting part of the overall game, which some players will like. Do you need to make it more simmy? Well that's almost a non-sense question. You need to make it match the overall agenda that you're trying to portray. Do you think it does that? Do you think that employing the technique will be engaging?

I do. But then we've got a long way to go here between some notion about how to play and looking at what happens in playtesting. I think you're getting to the point where only playtesting will tell if it's a good part of the game or not.

Mike

[Caldis]

I think the dials are a great idea to get everybody on side knowing what your aiming for, but to make it really simmy the changing dials should change your resolution system.  So if you make the game a doom & gloom tone and gritty/realistic you adjust your combat system to reflect that, wheras a comedic light hearted game wouldn't face the same critical hit chart.  I think to make it really simmy you have to make it part of the resolution of gameplay whereas your implementation as it stands seems to just be exploration, the SIS upon which a CA is built.

[komradebob]

For right now, I'm curious if people think that those elements will potentially scratch the Sim itch. As I said, what the design does is force the player to give meaning to prescribed elements. (This is basically bricolage, if I understand the term correctly.) Do y'all think that these elements need to be more Simmy?

I think that it does allow a particular itch that I would call "simmy" to be itched, worldbuilding. But not that by Jay's definition (can't be bricloage because it voids the "character/world" opposition dynamic), it would actually be anti-sim. I think it's safe to say that at best it's a small sub-set of simulationism. To be really technical a technique that only supports a small sub-set of sim play.
What I'm saying is that it is, in and of itself a potentially interesting part of the overall game, which some players will like. Do you need to make it more simmy? Well that's almost a non-sense question. You need to make it match the overall agenda that you're trying to portray. Do you think it does that? Do you think that employing the technique will be engaging?

I do. But then we've got a long way to go here between some notion about how to play and looking at what happens in playtesting. I think you're getting to the point where only playtesting will tell if it's a good part of the game or not.

Mike

I sort of wonder about that, particularly the bolded parts of Mike's response. World-building strikes me as part of trad Sim design, but a part that generally falls to the GM. When there is more dispersed world-building ( that is, all participants have more input into the elements of exploration prior to the start of the adventure) it seems to throw concepts of GNS divisions all higgly-piggly. Mind you, it doesn't seem to harm the focus of the design ( the particular game's particular agenda), but it does make categorization by GNS more difficult.

Which brings up an interesting side question: Is GNS mostly a historical artifact at this point ( one that describes broad styles of game play existent at the time the essays were written), superseded by individual game creative agenda?