Pricing and marketing your games and mine

[Graham W]

This is interesting. Two quick points...

Firstly, this seems like a rather American-centric discussion. Which is fine, if that's the market you're aiming for. Here in London, I tend to prefer games that are either a. available in PDF form or b. cheap enough so that, when they're shipped to the UK, they're still affordable.

(I'll run an indie game at Dragonmeet in London this year. I'll choose one I like and I'll almost certainly recommend that players buy it at the end of the game, but I'll want to choose one that I think the players are likely to buy.)

Secondly...if I'm going to pay over twenty dollars for a game, I'd like to get a book that keeps me occupied for a while. I've bought games that, although they look fantastic, I'd finished reading within an hour. I'm obviously not suggesting going in the White Wolf direction - I skip all the bloody awful fan-fiction anyway - but it's good if the game is well-written enough to keep me reading and rereading.

And could I just quickly make the point that I completely disagree that fans of indie games will pay anything. I absolutely won't.

And again: nice discussion. Lots of food for thought. Thanks.

Graham

[Ben Lehman]

Pricing Indie games is a thorny subject. I've long been on record as being critical of under pricing indie games so I'm not going to rehash that here.

Could you be convinced to link back to old threads, at the least?

yrs--
--Ben

[greyorm]

I have full faith that a lot of people at the Forge could produce something similar to Nobilis, and sell copies at that $50 price point

Indie or no, pretty gloss or no, good production quality or no, I won't pay $50 for a fucking book. Maybe the rich coastal folks who pay insane prices for rent and crap fifties out of their asses can afford that kind of gouge, but us poor Midwesterners look at prices like that and walk away.

I'll pay $20, I might pay $25, but that's my limit for an RPG book -- indie, industry, or otherwise. Let me repeat that: indie, industry, or otherwise. Anything higher than that and I'm paying bills.

Second, the market exists on perception of price value. Quit trying to catch up with the Joneses. If you can price your prodcuts below what the big guys are doing, and are puting out quality products, then YOU are setting the market price point, and will force the big guys to lower their prices to be competitive as customers start asking: "Why are these similar books so much more expensive?" Screw them! Quit trying to play their game by raising your prices to match: you want customers?

1) Produce good quality.
2) Use good marketing.
3) Lower your prices.

Pwn the industry! Viva la consumer!

[Ron Edwards]

Arrrrghhh ...

No one benefits from a "I'll show you mine" exchange of personal consumer preferences.

Joshua, this thread has lots of good in it - but I'm saying that you have to provide focus now, or it's going to get a waffle-print boot up its ass on the way to closure.

Best,
Ron

[Luke]

I disagree with Josh's points pretty much wholesale. I think that one of the greatest facets of the ethos of the Forge and the small press game "movement" has been "price your game at what you feel it's worth." What an excellent piece of advice for artists!

I get endless --neverfuckingending-- second person second guessing about my pricing practices for Burning Wheel. I priced my game the way I did in order to maximize my competitive edge. It was a decision I  made after great consideration. It is not the only aspect of BW's appeal, but I know that the price is often the final tipping point to get a prospective player to give it a try.

And lest there be any doubt, I know what I'm talking about. I've sold 2300 copies of BW in three years -- and that includes 8 months when it was out of print. An average of 6 copies a day. So rather than ranting about how undervalued small press rpgs are, look at your own numbers and ask yourself why you haven't moved a tenth of that.

Do I get paid by BW for writing it? No. For me, such an expense would double the cost of production and price BW right out of the market.

As Alexander said, we've got a long way to go baby -- and as small press we do have something to prove. And I do not believe that simply self-publishing a single title is the way to go about paying one's self a salary. I'm not saying there isn't profit, but that's not the same thing as a living wage. I would love to pay myself a salary, but I do not think that up-pricing books to "what the market will bear" is the way to do it.

Price your books for what you think they're worth.

-L

[guildofblades]

>>I'm not saying there isn't profit, but that's not the same thing as a living wage. I would love to pay myself a salary, but I do not think that up-pricing books to "what the market will bear" is the way to do it.<<

There is not a company in the entire hobby game industry, excepting maybe a purely TCG publisher than can support salaried staff one just one title, much less an RPG title. We had to get more than 40 titles in print before we could go full time.

As for pricing, you have to price a product so you can make a profit. Exactly how much that price should be will depend one your production methology and what your target core market is. So there is no one ideal pricing strategy. All I can say is it is easily possible to overprice yourself, but its also possible to under price yourself as well. Go to far either way and it can hurt sales.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com

[Ron Edwards]

Everyone shut up until Joshua tells us what we're supposed to be discussing.

Ron

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Thanks, Ron. I had to clean the house for a party and the thread went crazygonuts.

I see a couple of arguments here. Some are more articulate ways of saying what I'm saying. Some are not.

1: Indie games have to be published more professionally than they are if the prices are going to go up.

2: This is a hobby. I get paid by doing it and not losing money.

3: You should price your books at the value you feel is comfortable.

4: We can price our books lower than mainstream publishers and should set the market for them, competing on price.

5: Indie games are unfamiliar and should therefore be priced to customers who don't already trust the product.

My responses:

1: This is what I'm saying. We have to be comforatble charging what we're charging. This does not mean sacrificing your product's economic viability by pricing it too low, though. It means making the products better. If you feel like you can sell your game for $10, do you think you'll lose any customers if you sell at $11? Because that will enhance your ability to make the next game. I can see a value for low-priced Forge games. But they shouldn't be set arbitrarily low at $10. Think about every dollar, and if you think your game won't sell for $11, make it a dollar better.

2: For some of us, this is not a hobby. This is art. Hobbyists do things for their own benefit, maybe sharing technique with each other. Artists make something to share with the world. It costs an artist a lot to make something good. Time, effort, and a constant fight with conservative thought all go into creating something new. When that effort makes good, there should be a mechanical benefit to the artist.

3: I can't tell you how to price your games. Not effectively. I'm not talking about price fixing or some crap like that.

4: Competing on price with a volume producer? That seems like a losing battle, if ever they even notice.

5: There's a lot of work to do on publicity. I don't know how to make it work economically, but I bet we could figure out some stuff. In any event, I'm not sure that the best solution is to charge so little that people pay us in pocket change. In any event, Luke, you've raised your price to be just exactly what I'm talking  about, so I don't know how you could really be disagreeing.

So what I'm getting at here is that stuff like A|State is showing us the way in some ways. I think the fact that it looks good beside Blue Planet isn't much of a selling point — that's called "blending in" — but the fact that it's so well produced is a light to us all. Burning Wheel is a beautiful product with excellent rep. Let's make games like that and charge like Luke does.

For all of modern history, it's been a controversial thing to say that artists should get paid in money. In the information age, we're the people who control the biggest product.

[Malcolm Craig]

1: Indie games have to be published more professionally than they are if the prices are going to go up.

I'm confident in my own mind that a|state (to use this as an example, as it is, unsurprisingly, the product I'm most familiar with) is priced a point which reflects the content and production values. Had a different distribution strategy been adopted from the outset, it may have been economically viable to set the price point lower, but the business plan dictated that the price point was:

a) Fair, given the content and quality

and

b) Comparable with similarly sized/produced products already out there in the marketplace.

All in all, I'm comfortable with the price point for a|state, gievn its current form.

2: This is a hobby. I get paid by doing it and not losing money.

I've heard from other people who have produced games in the past (mainly in the UK scene) that they wished they had set their price even a pound or two higher, as they felt they were underselling their product and even a modest increase in price would not have adversely affected sales and given a boost to their plans for further games/supplements. I am, I admit, primarily involved in producing games because my love of the hobby and the creative elements of it. However, in order not to lose ones shirt, there must be a certain element of hard-headed business sense involved.

3: You should price your books at the value you feel is comfortable.

As per my comments above, I'm entirely comfortable with the pricing of my product. Then again, I'm taking very seriously the pricing of future products in light of recent (over the past year) experiences.

4: We can price our books lower than mainstream publishers and should set the market for them, competing on price.

I can't argue with this, as the economies of scale dictate that the larger publishers have a massive edge in this regard. Having been on the booth at GenCon, I had the opportunity to sample many different games, production styles and pricing policies. 'Dogs in the Vineyard', for example, is a lovely book, wonderful just to hold in your hands and look at. The price set for DitV is to me, entirely fair, given the effort that has gone in to it and the quality of production.

5: Indie games are unfamiliar and should therefore be priced to customers who don't already trust the product.

But could unfamiliarity not be reconcilled with a reasonable price point, coupled with some form of consumer discounting during an initial launch period while the game in question establishes itself as a quality product and gains familiarity with the consumer? And as Josh pointed out, publicity is a big thing. I think that places like the Forge go a long way to addressing this, as the booth at GenCon taught me. The sheer number of people who came, gamed and purchased was great to behold? How can we further harness this? Well, I think set-ups like Indie Press Revolution go a long way to helping the indie games scene have greater presence in the marketplace. Individually, we can't out-shout the big boys for a 'share of voice' (apologies for the terrible marketing-speak) but collectively we can have a voice that shouts louder than any one individual. For example, I'd be delighted to have an ad for any indie game in 'The Circular', the CGS eZine. Some purchasers of a|state may have come to the game via the mainstream and be unaware of all the great indie games out there. If we can help in some small way popularise the scene, then I'm all for that.

The kind of 'affiliate marketing' (OK, marketing is my day job, I'll admit that much) can and does provide many benefits. I'm thinking not along the lines of "How can I promote my game?" but "How can I promote my game AND the rest of the indie games scene at the same time?"

So what I'm getting at here is that stuff like A|State is showing us the way in some ways. I think the fact that it looks good beside Blue Planet isn't much of a selling point — that's called "blending in" — but the fact that it's so well produced is a light to us all. Burning Wheel is a beautiful product with excellent rep. Let's make games like that and charge like Luke does.

I look at games like 'DitV' and 'Burning Wheel' and think "Excellent games, excellent production values, fairly priced." a|state takes a slightly different approach but still reaches the same end goal of being a quality product. I think Luke has proved beyond reasonable doubt that his strategy works. Has a|state mananged this? Well, despite a rather notable setback, yes. Sales are good and the adoption of a different distribution strategy has proved to be beneficial.

And as a footnote, anyone who would like their game promoted in 'The Circular', please do not hesitate to get in touch. Just email me at: malcolm [at] contestedground [dot] co [dot] uk. I'd be delighted to assist others in the promotion of their games. The more we all pull together and shout about how good each others proucts are, the better it will be for all of us.

Cheers
Malcolm

[Josh Roby]

The kind of 'affiliate marketing' (OK, marketing is my day job, I'll admit that much) can and does provide many benefits. I'm thinking not along the lines of "How can I promote my game?" but "How can I promote my game AND the rest of the indie games scene at the same time?"

I would love to see some real work done in this direction (as much as I'd love to have the time to do it myself).  I think especially combined with the fact that a lot of indie games are not designed to be "market hogs" taking up all of a gamer's game time for a year, but instead is designed to be played a handful of times, indie games are well-suited to marketing cooperatively rather than as competitors.

[Ben Lehman]

This is just to notify that I've split off a couple of side topics into new threads:

Making money, making a living discussing whether or not fair recompense for design work is a pipe dream or an insult to customers, response to Viktor, Clinton, and Frank here.
[rant] Copyright, Creative Commons, and Artistic Freedom about why I don't recommend people use copyleft licences, response to Vikor here.

yrs--
--Ben

[Jasper Polane]

2: For some of us, this is not a hobby. This is art. Hobbyists do things for their own benefit, maybe sharing technique with each other. Artists make something to share with the world. It costs an artist a lot to make something good. Time, effort, and a constant fight with conservative thought all go into creating something new. When that effort makes good, there should be a mechanical benefit to the artist.

I truly, truly cannot understand what you're saying here. What does this even mean?
You stop creating if people stop paying you? What's to stop you from sharing your creations for free?
If I choose to publish my game as a free pdf, suddenly it's not art but a hobby? Suddenly I'm not an artist but a hobbyist?

--Jasper

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Despite several people's efforts, this discussion just went into the land of Internet Opinion About Ineffable Things. It also went into the land of What I Feel About What You Said About Me.

Neither land is good.

This thread's closed now.

Best,
Ron