Fantasy setting, probably not good enough :)

[Christoffer Lernö]

I mailed a few things from my rules so far and now I finally decided to make the step to actually mail anything about my setting. My main reason is that it's in a constant set of flux as I keep changing the details. I've written some background, some good stuff, some mediocre which I may or may not throw away in the end.
The setting is kind of generic fantasy I suppose.

The realms were mainly dominated by humans after they killed most of the elves, forced the dwarves back into their caves and the trolls into the depth of the forests.
That was how it used to be anyway until the realm was united for for a brief span of about a hundred years. But the empire shattered and the world was plunged into a hundred years of civil wars as warlords and kings started battling the lands for power. This together with a surge in monsters on the countryside and an omnious power only refered to as the "Dark" which spawns revenants praying on the living.

The world is a pretty dangerous place (except small kingdoms where the ruler is able to keep monsters and enemies at bay). In the wilderness there are villages that has been isolated for generations from the rest of the world.

The players could be explorers, or mercenaries, heroes, traders... they're special because they dare to brave the dangers outside.
It's not really dark fantasy though, although it might sound like it. It's just that with all the constant warfare there is very little infrastructure and the very real danger of the wilderness makes it hard to travel. Most people are not really interested in leaving the safety of their homes.

Humans are the dominating species but other races have gotten more room now that the humans no longer supress them.

Elves are more like american indians than blue blooded aristocrats in my game. Besides, the prevalent elf race where the setting is based was almost wiped out by humans about a thousand years back from where the game starts. These elves are walked around like gypsies, without land or law to protect them. In these days, life are a little better, but the wild is more dangerous these days.

All elder races, that is everybody except humans, have innate magical abilities. Not all have developed these talents but there are always a few who know them. Elven talents include shapeshifting, healing, illusion type of magic and such things. Usually only ONE talent is developed (you don't have shapeshifting elves using both healing and illusion). Elves also knows how to make use of protective symbols and frequently weave those into potent war paints which are more than decorational.

Dwarves all have the ability to imbue items with their life force, in effect dwarves can make all sorts of magical items. The more skilled artisans they are, the greater potential power of the item. Dwarves are really tough and resistant to heat and cold. The Dwarves dug into their cave fortresses and managed to maintain independency when humans invaded. Currently they're allowed their own independent kingdoms within the human lands. Their magical items are naturally very sought-after. Like the elves know secret lore of symbols, but theirs are different, often tattooed into the flesh by artisans known as Runemasters.

The world also have trolls as a player race. Unlike the elves who where a lot of more profilic in the region before the coming of man the trolls always kept to themselves in communities hidden deep in the forests. Abilities of the trolls are very similar to that of the elves, but they are usually more docile than the elves (Headhunting elves are rumoured exist in remote places of the realms). Male trolls are usually friggin big, but females are roughly of human size and often very beautiful to human eyes.

Humans are the only ones with access to external magic, and the most common magic among humans are demonic magic. Demonic magic is extremely powerful, but relies on channeling demonic energy from the outer realms leading to increasingly more demonic taint on the user, transfiguring him/her slowly into a demon guise which eventually leads stops the user from using magic entirely (as the completed transformation into a demon prevents the mage from opening the passages between the worlds).
To prevent this grim fate, mages can try to seal off the taint of the magic with magical masks and fetters, demon containing sigils in the form of tattoos or sacrificing body parts.

There are other types of magic as well, one type of life-magic which are pretty simple magics like healing and stuff which unfortunately ages the user. Again only humans can use this thing.
Then there is tao-magic (only because I don't want to call them ki-powers) to have some chinese martial arts brought into the mix (but very tastefully, I promise!)

There are naturally dragons and a whole bunch of other magical creatures, but I'm not plugging in the montrous companion here, I'm only picking the best and least mythologically burdened ones.

In addition there are remote places where races exist which are considered "demon races" by humans (but aren't really), those include a race of three-eyed humanoids living somewhere in the west beyond the mountains as well as a race of intelligent apes living far in the southern jungles (where the locals incidentally treat them as gods).

Magic mostly seem like abilities rather than spells with some exceptions for certain demon summonings humans do.

Something like that to begin with anyway.

[Matt Steflik]

Reading through your description reminded me of James Clemens' Banned and the Banished Series (Wit'ch Fire, Wit'ch Storm, Wit'ch War, Wit'ch Gate).  Here's an overly simplistic description of it.  The series chronicle's the land of Alasea during its "Black Age".  "The Dark" has lorded over man for many years, mostly due to man's sudden and inexplicable loss of the ability to use magic (called "Chi" and referred to as "Chyrric").  The "elder races" (elves, dwarves, trolls, dryands, merfolk, shape changers and such) have been gone so long from the world of men that they are mostly considered myth.  Elements of "The Dark" have even managed to change how man's history is viewed; while they were in fact conquered, history now states that "The Dark" rescued man from barbarity and gave them structure and a sense of cohesive government.  But maybe you're already familiar with this series. If not, it might be worth your while to check it out.  Here's a link to the author's site (some chapter excerpts there) if you're interested:

http://www.jamesclemens.com/

[Christoffer Lernö]

Seems to be a neat story but it's way more dark than anything I had in mind. My idea seems positively cheerful in comparison. :)

[Mike Holmes]

Well, to be blunt, that does seem rather generic. With almost no modification it could be used for D&D. Is there supposed to be any part other than the standard D&D motivations (which your system is supposed to be rid of) that serves to motivate the players to action? Or, rather, what will the game be about? What activities will the characters be taking on? Are they opposed to the Dark? Are they involved in Demon magic, in a way that is somehow compelling? Where's the action?

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Have you read my new essay, Fantasy Heartbreakers? I ask because it seems to me that you may be working on one.

This would not at all be a bad thing, for all the reasons that I stated in my essay, as long as we aren't talking about a commercial venture, and as long as you recognize that this is probably a stage in the development of your game design, rather than a goal that will have a lot of interest for others.

Best,
Ron

[Christoffer Lernö]

Well, to be blunt, that does seem rather generic. With almost no modification it could be used for D&D. Is there supposed to be any part other than the standard D&D motivations (which your system is supposed to be rid of) that serves to motivate the players to action? Or, rather, what will the game be about?

Hehe :) No you're very welcome to be blunt. In a way it is that standard D&D fare, I won't pretend it isn't. It's just that you can't really do magic like the magic I have for my game in D&D. Combat in D&D is not really like the combat I have in my game either.

It doesn't sound like much, I know. It's just that if I would squeeze (my seemlingy generic) world into D&D it wouldn't be the same world anymore. D&D, like any game, cuts corners somewhere - there is no other way if you want to keep it playable. I mean you make decisions like: "this is the way magic gonna work in my game, so this magic system works nicely" or "my world is a fantasy setting, so I probably don't need to figure out any rules for full automatic fire with machineguns"

What I set out to do was a very magical setting. Magic would be very impressive and probably quite powerful.
Elves (actually I called them witchpeople when developing my world but elves are really what they are), dwarves and the other races would not be humans with slightly different characteristics but would have innate powers of their own. I wanted to add demonic magic where using magic is scary for a reason. I didn't want the "artillery" type of magic but a more reasonable, story-telling (no don't think White Wolf here) kind of magic permeating the world.

And despite all that magic I wanted it to be but a part of the setting, nothing that would dominate adventures.

So a lot of magic everywhere, but still making magic special and strange.

What is it one can do in my game you can't do in D&D? Oh, you could have the same setup for sure, same kind of adventures, but the bad ass magic-user would not be quite the same because the magic-user won't really use his tricks unless he's in quite a fix but when he does he could turn the whole group into frogs unless they have talismans and stuff to protect them.

Still doesn't sound like anything but D&D I guess.

But it's only in the details I want to be different. In EVERY detail, but still the details.

Stories are more like taken from Inu-Yasha than from Diablo 2 if that makes any sense to you.

As for "Fantasy Heartbreakers", I read it Ron. It was really nice. I'm trying not to make those mistakes. System-wise I think I'm getting to a point where my rules actually make really good sense (something my first drafts about 10 years ago didn't - on the other hand you can't figure out exactly what inner organ you just pulverized with that mace in my current draft haha I don't know what I was thinking)

[Bankuei]

One thing that might help us out is giving a bit of detail into your system, or things you'd like your system to do to make your setting and the type of gameplay you have in mind occur.  It may seem that we're superbig on system here on the Forge, but as far as setting goes, you can go out and grab any book, movie, anime, videogame, or history text and pull out a setting as you see fit.  

We're really looking at "What is your game about, and how do your rules make it happen?"  If you're designing a simulationist game, you need to let us know why it shouldn't be run with GURPS, and how is it different?  If you're making a gamist game, then you need to let us know why we shouldn't use D&D(with modified magic rules)?  If its narrativist, why shouldn't we use the Pool?

You have a very specific setting and type of story in mind, and you've decided that nothing else is going to fit the bill as far as making it happen, so you need to be aware of what you're trying to make happen and let us know about it in order to provide useful discussion.

For example, you've listed in your 2 Weapons thread, a basic about your combat system, which seems fairly standard that I could name a list of other systems that would do the same thing just as well.  What would your system provide that would define your setting uniquely?  Perhaps instead of skill you'd rate any die roll based on the favor of the gods, or the alignment of the moon, or something that no other game is out there doing.  What are the needs of your setting/gameplay style that you need your system to do specifically?

Chris

[Mike Holmes]

What I set out to do was a very magical setting. Magic would be very impressive and probably quite powerful.
Elves (actually I called them witchpeople when developing my world but elves are really what they are), dwarves and the other races would not be humans with slightly different characteristics but would have innate powers of their own. I wanted to add demonic magic where using magic is scary for a reason. I didn't want the "artillery" type of magic but a more reasonable, story-telling (no don't think White Wolf here) kind of magic permeating the world.

OK, that stuff seems to be the crux of the originality of your setting. As you point out, the game is also about different combat. As Ron pointed out you should focus on these things in the setting. You call the game MageBlade. Well that's pretty evocative of these two elements. Wrap the setting around these elements. The more time you spend describing the unique nature of these things, and forget about including other things for "completeness" sake, the more you'll find that the setting becomes distinct from others, and more compelling to play.

That means you should omit things. For example, what is cool about the elves and dwarves as related to these things. Their special magical abilities. So don't make them Elves and Dwarves. Drop all that baggage, and just go with the essence of the two races. Heck, you already started down that road by calling the one race Witchpeople. Go with that idea. What does the name say about them. Perhaps they were human once and were drawn into the "witches way" which subtly altered them physically as well as mentally and emotionally. Perhaps the "witches way" is similar somehow to Demon Magic in that way, but more subtle, and natural. Maybe they have sin like bark or something. Just whenever you make a decision about them, make it something that is different from elves, or just unique.

Instead of Dwarves, have a race of Giants that are few in number and live in high towers. Or if the withpeople are cool enough, just omit them completely. Again, including something just for completeness is a mistake.

And despite all that magic I wanted it to be but a part of the setting, nothing that would dominate adventures.

So a lot of magic everywhere, but still making magic special and strange.

Why not allow it to dominate adventures. That could be the pull of the game. If it's really that cool a system (making it special and strange; system is much more important than setting as far as this is concerned), it should be enough to propel the action all by itself. In combination wiht the special combat.

What is it one can do in my game you can't do in D&D? Oh, you could have the same setup for sure, same kind of adventures, but the bad ass magic-user would not be quite the same because the magic-user won't really use his tricks unless he's in quite a fix but when he does he could turn the whole group into frogs unless they have talismans and stuff to protect them.

Still doesn't sound like anything but D&D I guess.

Well it could be the same, and it mght not be. Only the system will tell.

But it's only in the details I want to be different. In EVERY detail, but still the details.

Well, if you have Elves, but decide to change the details to make them fat, ugly, and live in mud houses on rivers, then they're not really Elves anymore, are they? So, I agree, change the details until the world is yours, and focuses on the magic and mayhem that the title implies and you claim will be delivered by the system.

On another topic, why do these special magical warriors exist in the world of MageBlade? You say that the characters are especially powerful, magically. Why is that so? Is it an innate ability which few are born with? Does it require incredible will to employ magic advanced from what the general populace uses? Why can't anyone cast a spell from a Grimoire?

And most important, what limits magic in this world? The characters learn spells or can cast them from a book. How often? Repeatedly? You say above that the characters can employ awesome magic, but do so sparingly. Why? Is it a social limitation? Or are there magical principles at work that make it dangerous or costly to cast magic? If my Mage can fly, why doesn't he just fly everywhere? D&D "memorization" is such a poor mechanic precisely because it says so little about magic. It is plainly obvious that it is just a thrown in mechanic to limit players.

The form of limit on your magic is possibly the most important defining quality about it, and in the context of this game might say everything about it.

Mike

[Lance D. Allen]

OK, that stuff seems to be the crux of the originality of your setting. As you point out, the game is also about different combat. As Ron pointed out you should focus on these things in the setting. You call the game MageBlade

Um... That name is taken.. Well, Mage Blade rather than MageBlade, but the difference is only a space. If you convince him to name his game MageBlade, and he gets to publish before me (a very real possibility, at the rate I'm going) I'll cry and never forgive you.


Well, never forgive you, at any rate.

[Christoffer Lernö]

You call the game MageBlade.

No I don't, that's Wolfen's game. His is fantasy too, but that's where the similarities end.

That means you should omit things. For example, what is cool about the elves and dwarves as related to these things. Their special magical abilities. So don't make them Elves and Dwarves.

I must respectfully disagree a little here. The reason I might go back and call them elves and dwarves eventually has to do with ease of learning and getting into the game. As I've already stated: my attempt is not to do anything totally new, only to do stuff really really well.

If people see "witchpeople" and think "oooh, cool race" then maybe that's neat. On the other hand if there's a chance people will say "This is silly, why is he calling them witchpeople when they're clearly elves" then that's a good reason for leaving them out.

Also, some people might want fairly standard fantasy (and yes, I really want to be an alternative in that niche even though it means competing on AD&D turf) and might be put off: "oooh, but why are there no elves in this game??"

My dwarves are more archetypal dwarves than the elves are elves. My dwarves are only harkening back to more norse mythology type of dwarves, but they're still dwarves. However, my elves are different from those as well, so there is no real reason to call them elves.

They got pointy ears, about human size, but not immortal (only maybe 200-400 years (I forgot what I decided on) or so), dexterous, abilities to shapechange and stuff, usually heal without scaring unless you happen to injure them with iron weapons. Many of them living in the far from civilization are actually head hunters. So they're not your typical fantasy elf. But they're loosely elfish. That's why witchpeople could work, as could elf. In any case the players will need to read up a little to figure out how they work.

[contracycle]

I must respectfully disagree a little here. The reason I might go back and call them elves and dwarves eventually has to do with ease of learning and getting into the game. As I've already stated: my attempt is not to do anything totally new, only to do stuff really really well.

Thats meaningless - did elves have to be like something you already knew in order for you to learn about them?  Either they're elves or they aint; whether they are called something else in the game text is important to nobody.

This is the broad problem with your whole project: you cannot imitate and innovate at the same time.  You are either making a D&D clone to go on the same shelf as all the clones (if it gets that far) or you are making a different game.  Choose one.

[Christoffer Lernö]

One thing that might help us out is giving a bit of detail into your system, or things you'd like your system to do to make your setting and the type of gameplay you have in mind occur.

Ok fair enough.

I really like fantasy, but I hate playing fantasy RPGs. I guess I'm a narrativist at heart but I appreciate the gamist element in fantasy RPG of building an increasingly more competent character.

Let's take some examples of what I have problems with:
AD&D has a sucky combat system which doesn't come anywere near being realistic. This is a problem because I can't say "I shout:'have at you' as I attack the bad guy'" and have that work out in a reasonable manner no matter how powerful I am. The gamist rules insists that there are hitpoints to be counted levels to consider.

A narrativist GM can bridge these problems by simply ignoring rules for a better effect ("'AAaagh' he screams as you slash the axe into his arm, almost severing it" - because the bad guy is really not physically powerful).

But doing that will mess up the gamist element, because it harms game rule consistency.

I want a game where one hit can kill, where you are afraid of getting hit (makes it more dramatic), and a fluid feeling to it so that you don't get bogged down by fighting. Unless something special is happening the GM should be able to keep the pace with the narrative.

Usually gamist, simulationist and narrativist elements clash the hardest in the combat system. Because from the gamist view it needs to be fair. Simulationists want to keep it realistic or at least detailed, and narrativist want it to not interfere with a good story.

I vainly tried to construct such a combat system but ultimately failed.

What I'm using is an Advanced Heroquest tweak which I'm trying to simplify to actually satisfy all three categories, although simulationist is the less important one it's not too noticably so.

What you can do with AHQ is that you can fight lesser opponents left and right if you're good at fighting. If you're not good at fighting that doesn't mean so much if you can pack a mean punch and is hard to injure (like a giant).
Any weapon can kill, it's just that a sword is more likely to be deadly than a dagger. Damage is counted with a kind of hitpoints, but they're like 3 or so and not the immense amouts you find in most games. Basically, you hit and damage someone, they hurt.

On one side it's a very cleanly gamist system, on the other it's fast enough to not obstruct a good story (don't get me started on long tortureous sessions of Rolemaster combat) while still being impressively realistic.

But of course, that has little to do with the world. But it's one thing I'm aiming at.

I can see the powerful hero finishing the big bad demon monster with this powerful attack which cleaves him in two. Or on the other hand the young inexperienced tag-along who gets genuinely scared for his life (and rightly so) when attacked by a single goblin.

I want the fights to be able to tell a good story.

I'm kind of running out of time here, gotta write the rest later, but I promise to explain why I have the particular set of elves, dwarves and trolls. Why there is demonic magic and why it has to be so powerful. And why it's gonna be ok to play an adventure without any mages at all in the group and still have fun. And why the world isn't dominated by mages when it's so powerful, which also explains why demon magic, despite it being immensely powerful had little effect on the politics of the world.
And how I want magic to be perceived. And how I'm trying to do with monsters and the like. But that has to be a little later because I have to rush.

Ok?

[Christoffer Lernö]

but I promise to explain why I have the particular set of elves, dwarves and trolls.

For races, the standard fare seems to be humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, orcs and trolls. The legacy of D&D I guess, which in turn borrowed it from Tolkien.

Anyone making a game without these races, or adding some will have people ask "why did they leave out/add xxxxx?"

I guess it's a personal decision. I chose mine to avoid the Tolkien heritage and borrow a little from norse mythology and a little from anime interpretations of fantasy.

Or ok I choose them because I thought they would be cool. ;)

Orcs and halflings are not left out because I don't think they're neat as races, but because they are Tolkien. And that's not what I'm using as a basis.

So a little from others and a little of my own.

All of these non-human races would have magical abilities which is so common in literature but very uncommon in RPGs where the extent of their talents usually amount to different physical power and prowess. Some games even grant a little infravision and magic resistance to make them "really different" :)

Basically I wanted to borrow from folklore without taking so much that they became totally inhuman and unplayable.

Why there is demonic magic and why it has to be so powerful.

In stories, magic is usually colourful, powerful, yielding complex and interesting effects. In contrast most RPG spells only do a single thing and usually it doesn't look like much... if the mage even succeeds with his spell.

So, spells are rarely interesting. I think this is because interesting spells tend to be flexible. Flexible means more powerful. Powerful means entering the game at a very late stage.

Usually you have to have played your mage for a LONG time with the "boring" spells before you can start playing around with the colourful and flexible ones. The only problem is that at that level you probably won't have much use for them because you learned to rely on firepower rather than finesse.

In fact many games turns the mages into little more than a cross between heavy artillery & a general utility knife.

Still, there are some exceptions. Shadowrun has some nice magical effects, but they're not so much in spellcasting as in spirit summonings.
Spirit summonings are in accord with my requirements: They're flexible, colourful and yielding interesting effects.
Spellcasting though, is little more than AD&D artillery stuff. Shadowrun also has all mages being able to astrally project which also is a neat, flexible effect.

Shadowrun has a little right, but the parts that are right (in my point of view) are not in the spellcasting bit. With that they ended up with the old AD&D cliches...

So why powerful magic? Because flexible, colourful, interesting magic will be powerful no matter how you do. If you do a "open lock" spell you can have it neatly balanced, but the spirit summons in SR? Good luck classifying the usefulness of that "spell"!

And demonic magic? Well it simply worked really well with the rest of the stuff and besides I like the idea.

And why it's gonna be ok to play an adventure without any mages at all in the group and still have fun.  And why the world isn't dominated by mages when it's so powerful,

Although the magic exists, it's not gonna be THE ULTIMATE POWER one could imagine it to be.

I solve this in a manner which might be obvious: Iron absorbs magic, and warding amulets and trinkets ACTUALLY work, and do work well. (Which is not the case in most other games where the balance is created by limiting the spells themselves)

So not only am I not balancing the magic, but I'm also intentionally not balancing the COUNTER-magic. This is not to limit the power of magic, but to let a group without magic users take on mages without a problem (provided of course they know what's coming).

I think this has a neat story-type of feeling to it. The heroes actually finding the stuff which counters the magic of the big bad guy and without his magic the big bad magic user is a piece of cake.

The AD&D method of simply having fighters and mages powerful enough to take what the magic user dishes out doesn't make for a very interesting story had it been used in a book or a movie. (Or so I feel anyway)

What I'm aiming for is to make the magic a more cinematic, story enhancing thing.

The problem with very cinematic magic is that unless it's being countered effectively it's gonna be overly powerful. So what if you have a party with one magic user and the rest are basically fighters or archers or whatever? Aren't they gonna feel left out in many cases?

It's a difficult problem to solve. AD&D and many other games solves this by removing power and flexibility from the spells and the spell casting.
Others simply put the stress on the mages instead.

My game works a little differently. Taking hints from CoC I decided to have demonic spells which all produce demonic taint which starts corrupting the caster.

I had some neat ideas how to deal with the taint. The taint will produce physical deformities making the player look more and more like a demon. (there are different paths the changes can take). When the changes are completed (after enough taint is accumulated) the mage effectively becomes a demon and loses his/her powers.

Mages can reduce taint by ritually sacrificing body parts, using magical tattooes to seal of the demonic magic in their bodies and so on to keep the inevitable at bay.

So the players will be reluctant to use magic, no matter how powerful it is. Taint and related stuff are all geared towards being very visual. I'm heavily going for a visual element with magic because I find it desperately lacking in many games.

Ok, I know I promised answers to other questions as well, but maybe this is a good start. Let me know if you bothered to read it at all, ok?

[Mike Holmes]

Um... That name is taken.. Well, Mage Blade rather than MageBlade, but the difference is only a space.

Whoops! See the problem with these designs. They are so indistinguishable from each other that I'm starting to get them confused.

My apollogies to both parties.

Mike

[Garbanzo]

pfire:

Perhaps abandon the implicit character classes.

You're talking about characters being "magic users" or "fighters" or "archers," and wondering about balancing this divide...  From where I'm sitting, this is an artificial problem.  Drift a little bit farther from DnD and everything smooths out.  

There's no need for artificial prohibitions on magic use.  John Q. Fighter may have some pre-battle rituals to strengthen and sharpen his blade, frex.  Let everyone have all the options, specializing as they see fit to make the characters they want.  If someone *wants* to have a wholly mundane character, then that's their decision.  On the other hand (and, unless I'm much mistaken, more in accordance with the literature you're talking about), if magic is real and powerful and glorious and all that, a whole variety of people may have magic of one sort or another.  

thought:
Depending on how you work it, your focus on demon magic could be an ideal solution: the power comes from an outside source, so the gladiator doesn't have to devote his life to the basics - demons are quite keen on giving people what they think they want.  Magic would be prevalent and scary and motivating stories (b/c those dastardly demons are so casually brought into the world).  
And it may do a fair amount to personalize the world.

The constant balance: the temptation of great power, the certainty of great risk.  Each character comes to their own personal decision about what's acceptable to them.  I like it.

-Matt