[Realm] Character Types (semi-poll)

[Calithena]

Sayter,

Are you familiar with Ars Magica? That game's distinction between Magi, Companions, and Grogs, which gives each an assigned role in the covenant and a different status in play, might be helpful to you if you're really wanting to include all these character types in the same game. You might also find some of Ron Edwards' ideas in Sorcerer & Sword and Sorcerer about running games with parallel narratives, and some of his actual play reports on that game and others, useful in how to run a game with people in different roles.

[Bill Masek]

Sayter,

I like your three character types.  I would be interested in more information on the kinds of resources and conflicts the characters face.  Do Mortal Heroes start with a kingdom under their control?  A body of followers?  What do they have that makes them worthy of playing the great game with god-like dreamers?  What conflicts await the dreamers that they can not simply unmake?  Will the Mortal Heroes and Sparks have an advantage in these areas?

I think that your Spark conflict needs work.  Evil secret societies with their fingers in everything are over done.  While it might add an interesting bit of flavor, I would centralise the conflict on hunting/sustaining their symbiots.  If I were you I would make the symbiots sentient with their own needs and desires.  Check out Ron Edwards "Sorceror" for an excelant example of how to do this.

I would like to see Sway worked into all three archetypes with important statistical consequences for each.  You already have Dreamers changing based on their sway and struggling to stay human.  Perhaps it acts as a reputation for Mortals Heroes, defining the number and kinds of followers they draw up.  Acts which no one knows of do not effect their sway.  For Sparks it could represent their relationship with their symbiots.  The better they treat their symbiots, the more positive their sway.  The worse they treat them, the more negative.  (This would require that you make symbiots sentient.)

You have some cool ideas.  I'd like to see the game when its ready.

Best,
        Bill

[sayter]

no, I think I may have missed a bit in teh translation from brain to paper, as it were, on dreamers.

Sway does NOT indicate either Good or Evil in terms of the dreamer. Rather, positive and negative.

You can very much still play the defender of all things good, and be as honorable as you can and save puppies from drowning and all that. You can just the same go on murderous rampages and use kittens as ammunition for your potato cannon. the Stain, or Sway, doesn't care about what the end result is. It cares only what was the first intention of the power, as it were. If the power were siphoned to cause damage and remove things from reality through its use it would be considered negative. If it created something or restored something lost then it would be considered a positive use of power.

I can just as much create an object for evil as I can for good. The idea is that I am adding to reality. That constitutes a positive shift in Sway. A friend could require me to remove an arrow from a wound...but its a broad tip and to tear it out would kill him. So I instead make the arrow into nothingness. I have used negative power.

The idea , in the end, is to force players to think. Sure, my intentions are good. But if I am TOO good and ONLY create then I run the risk of going overboard....and if I only consume I likewise am doomed. Instead, they must act with common sense and awareness of their choices.

hmmm this has inspired a bunch new ideas, describing it as such :)

[sayter]

Bill: Gladly fill in what details here that I can


Initially I had only thought of mortal heroes as those who are reknowned figures making a difference...I had not even considered the concept of followers being a core mechanic. I had my mind more in the "martial arts movie" headspace...the lone badass destroying hordes of foes even with purely mortal capabilities. Just someone whos skill was beyond that of normal men. My thoughts there were to start the character with more skill points than a dreamer or spark could, as they are basically the child prodigy types...just amazing good at what they do.

The way you set the idea for a sway mechanic actually sounds quite comfortable and easy to work in. I had my eye on a couple ideas, and my own was close to yours (although it was akin towards an alignment moreso than anything else initially) but with a few tweaks I think the concept woudl work out quite fairly and would make complete sense. As to how to work followers, I willl need to give that some thought. Maybe heroes can use their natural talents to their advantage in some way, but arent ever feeling OBLIGATED to take followers since that may not be their concept...unless of course the character is a Richard Rahl type in which case ...tough luck. Accept the responsibility.



Your remarks regarding Sparks: Agreed totally. The Sway mechani there just isnt working for me .

See, the problem lies in this: I want players to have a sentient bound to them, with intelligence. The problem is, I want them to be able to use many of them. And if they have these things for a long while, they are going to be haing a lot of conversations with these things. And that, my dear friends, is a pain in the ass to roleplay and can KILL a character of anyone less then an amaaaazing RPer. Which in turn drags down a game. I have always hated INsanity type effects, and moreso randomly rolled ones. Expecting characters to automatically respond in charactr is quite obviously a bad assumption.
      So instead I thought to make them of animal intelligence, but still empathically bonded to the host. This way they could wear lots and have many with a little magic in a bunch of areas....or stick with one and power it up over time leading to veyr powwerful magick in one or two areas. The plug-n-play nature of the symbiotes, so to speak, was aimed at being atttractive and fresh and gives a player a ton of options from the get go. This concept is far from ironed out and I woudl very much like a way to make them able to have a few symbiotes and still have them be almost like a familiar...but I also want limited flexibility on any given symbiote.

As for your Dreamers question, about what challenges do they face that they couldnt unmake:

Dreamers do not get much power to begin with. right now its set at 3 total points to distribute among the 12 Strata. They must consider what sort of effects they woudl like to create...and also that they cannot start with any Strata above 2. Now, to further complicate things, they cannot take any strata that are "opposites". In pairs of opposites then, they are:

Light/Shadow
Life/Death
Form/Decay
Force/Spirit
Body/Mind
Temporal/Spatial

So right from the get go they are immediately cutting off power potential. Furthermore, each level of power in a Strata obviously means the good ol "weak to strong" curve. Raising strata up levels will cost a fair amount of XP ( i use SP for Skill Points), and they are also very dependant on their mana (Ki). With all these initial limitations, you then add in Sway which makes them need to use care with their powers.

Teh casting mechanic isnt fully fleshed out yet, but thats a whole different matter entirely.

As for the conflicts themselves: Dreamers can sense one another, as well as Chimera. The individual "cults" of Dreamers (Periapts) would likely have some rivalries between their differring philosophies. The Chimera themselves are the largest threat, for they have a hate on for Dreamers too. They represent the gravest danger to their dark needs and vile desires. But a single dreamer is rarely a match for a Nightmare...and absolutely no match for a Terror, the gretest form for a Chimera. These evil monstrosities are able to turn entire legions into blubbering madmen and turn the most brave man in existence into a fit of unctonrollable fear. They are VERY BAD creatures. Thankfully, only a few Terrors exist. But there are numerous Nightmares and each has their own unique agenda and claim on the world. And then there are the lesser Chimera...Fears.

Fears are kinda like a possession. They can get inside of people and make them go bad. Feed on their misery, pain and doubt and fuel it with even more despair. Turn them into puppets and alter the world slowly...eventually they gain power and turn into Nightmares...and then have a physical presence in reality. Additionally, the world at large is filled with dangers spawned through the thousands of years when the mortal population was stuck in a bizarre slumber.



did i miss anything, Bill?

And once I have a good chunk of it done, I will be more than happy to send it to you :)

[Bill Masek]

Sayter,

That summery did indeed clear a few things up.

For Mortal Heroes:
What if all mortal heroes have followers.  Followers are people who they have inspired by their actions and will follow their example.  They will be willing to walk at the sides of the hero, but will not follow if he does not want them to.  However, they will always follow the ideals and values that the Hero has portrayed through his or her actions.

However, this bond goes two ways.  When a Mortal Hero stands up against a Chimera or Terror, he is fortified by the legions of people he has inspired.  Their loyalty to him and the power of his ideals make him vastly defeat through the power of magic and dreams.  To subvert him in this way would be just as difficult as defeating all his followers.

For Sparks:
I think this will solve your problem.  Symbiots are fully sentient beings.  However, they can not talk.  They have needs and desires that the Spark will KNOW when he wears it, though it will not tell him so in words.  Perhaps he feels the need himself.  Perhaps the knowledge simply plumps itself down in his brain.  Or delusions.  Or some combination of the above.  Maybe it varies for each symbiot.  The more symbiots the more that they demand and require.  If their needs are not met then they will begin to rebel.  Perhaps to many will begin to drive the Spark a bit insane.  Maybe he will seek more Symbiots to gain the power necessary to sustain his current ones.  I can see a lot of intresting conflicts resulting from this without the GM needing to play 30 NPCs or the Symbiots taking over the narration.

For Dreamers:
Cool.  I like it.  God like beings of not-totally-evil against more god like beings of total-evil.  I like how they morph and change based on the kinds of powers they use.  Since these are the most powerful beings, their conflict against the Chimeras is probably going to be the focus of game play, so I would like to know how the other archetypes help them in this conflict.  What elements do you see Mortal Heroes and Sparks bringing that the godlike Dreamers can not provide themselves?  I think the answer to this question will really define the other two archetypes.

Best,
        Bill

[sayter]

Bill:

You can call me Chris if you like :)

I really like that Heroic Mortal idea a lot. It gives a lot of interestign flexibility, and also promotes a player using such a character to uphold strong ideals and to carry them out. I had seen characters such as Richard Rahl and Luke Skywalker as being examples in terms of morality and how people see them. They are leaders of men, but each is a very different person when you stip away their powers. Richard Rahl has countless people who would gladly die for him, for he would do the same and would never give up. Luke, while not having legions of followers or being a king, commands the respect of all he meets and it is their belief in him and his moral fibre that ultimately wins out, despite the turmoil in his own head.

Using this followers idea as a template actually does have a very solid foundation in the nature of this game world. In fact, it would add a TON of intruige to almost any campaign. Jealousy and rivalry is VERY common among mortals...especially among the nobles and higher class people. A hero , like it or not, is elevated to this status in some degree. I will definitely give this some thought.

As for Sparks: I had thought of somethign along those lines, although your route is a lot more simple. Simple is better in most cases. So lets say it works like this , then....each Symbiote is intelligent and cannot talk. They communicate with the host body only after they are bound to him. Once they are connected, the host feels all that the symbiote requries to survive and does his best to provide this. In exchange they get the magick. Fair, I would say.
     If each symbiote had different needs that could certain give them a personality , too. Maybe one demands steak on a daily basis, its favorite food. Perhaps another requires some of your natural endurance. Another may demand you to have as much sex as possible for it, sot aht it can feed off the pheromones released during the act. A definitely interesting concept. The rebel idea....interesting. And it does make sense to a point. Symbiotic means BOTH benefit from the union, and if that ceases to be the case the creatuer has no reason to stick around.
    I'd also toyed with the idea of a different breed of symbiote , Parasties, if you will. They grant power, but they take more than they give...eventually totally controlling the host body.

as for Dreamers:


The question ask...how to provide things a mortal or a spark can provide that a dreamer cant....thats a REALLY tough question. Considering a powerful dreamer could create new life, that really does make it complicated. The way I see it, is that Dreamers are the legendary beings people only speculate about. They operate in realative secrecy to avoid the problems of Stain/Sway and protect the minds of their people from the influence of the Chimera. They arent really supposed to HAVE an equal (at least not at higher levels) other than another Dreamer or a Chimera or other powerful creature created from manifesting.

However, the other two types of characters have very different aspects. Dreamers are involved in a sheerly astronomical game of good and evil, where they are each a soldier for both sides of the coin. Mortal Heroes are the purely "human" element. They do not know about the grand games being played by creatures above their plane (unless of course they travel with Dreamers or meet other such things in a story). They struggle to survive, and the story from their perspective is much grittier and darker. Evil is at every corner and they rarely know it is there until it already has its' talons out.
   

Sparks are a bridge between the two. They live to please their symbiotes, as well as themselves and their people. They know of cosmic powers and mystical forces, but the ancient texts are not so relevant anymore. The only teachers of magick they get are creatures that become a part of their body. They are looked up to in some places, but also hated in others and branded as servants of demons. While a mortal hero might experience racist issues they will never have to contend with matters of magick, nor do they have to walk around with a worm affixed to their neck or a crab-like beast permanently fused to their shoulder....etc.

[Bill Masek]

Chris,

It seems like the only reason Mortal Heroes would not be able to aid in the great conflicts between dreamer would be a lack of raw power.  Motivation they have.  The Chimera are embodiments of darkness and evil.  They threaten the Mortal Heroe's people and his/her ideals.  Chimeras get in the way of what is (or what the Mortal Hero perceive to be) right.  Is it not the Mortal Heroes job to fight the impossible fight?

While the raw power of a lone mortal is nothing to a Chimera, and even a thousand minds divided without use, this does not mean the Mortal Hero is helpless against them.  If the Mortal Hero's will and resolve is that of his followers, he might have the metaphysical might to do battle with these cosmic baddies.  When he strikes the Chimera, it is not the pitiful piece of metal that hurts the mighty beast, but the combined trust, devotion and love of the Mortal Hero's followers that wounds these embodiments of evil.  When the claw that shatters cities glances off the Mortal Hero's hide, it is not the strength of his skin but the devotion of his followers that keeps him safe.

Not that these things will keep him safe from other mortals.  All the love in the world will not keep him safe from an assassins blade.  Unlike the Dreamer, other mortals pose a threat to Mortal Hero's.  They can kill them.  They can enslave the Mortal Hero's followers and break their will.

The Sparks I see having no problem with power when it comes to fighting Chimera.  They lack the breadth of powers that Dreamers enjoy, but unlike dreamers, they can use them as they choose.  I see no reason for you to make the effectiveness of the Sparks powers less.

What the Sparks lack in the battle against Chimera is motivation.  Sparks are greedy.  They only care (or at least only benefit) from acquiring more Symbiots and keeping them happy.  Perhaps the very existence of the Chimera weaken or damage their Symbiots.  Perhaps the Chimera consume Symbiots to enhance their own energies.

Then we have Dreamers.  The Uberfolk.  The beings who were crafted by the void to make war on evil.  With their level of power and its internal nature, they would have little need to venture outside their safe havens save to do battle.  It seems to me that they would be much more interesting if they fought along side Mortal Heroes and Sparks.  In exchange for helping these people attain their more basic goals, they aid the Dreamer in his or her grand struggle.

This kind of relationship can help in your scale of play.  The campaign could start focused on fairly basic mortal struggles.  Mortal Heroes do whats right on an interpersonal level, Sparks struggle to find Symbiots.  As play progresses the stakes of Mortal Heroes conflicts raise to national levels, Sparks are more worried about feeding their symbiots then finding more and the Dreamers start to sense the taint of the Chimera.  By end game the Chimeras dark influence has spread across the land, the Mortal Heroes must fight them to free their people, the Sparks to save their symbiots, and the Dreamers, well, its what they exist to do.

Personally, I think that this would be much more interesting then having 3 separate, unlinking storylines.  And lets be honest, at the end of the campaign, everyone wants to help take down the big baddie.  At least in my experience.

Best,
       Bill

[sayter]

Bill,

I think I am in absolute total agreement with this concept. Except where the Sparks are concerned. True, they seek the symbiotes in order to use the powers they were born to tap. However, they are capable of doing great things to aid their fellows. They would take the positions of advisors and confidantes, using their gift to do whatever they needed to. They could, obviosuly, serve evil as well.

Which brings an interesting point up...symbiotes are a creation of Void, altough not at all intentional. Magick merely works in a different way than it used to.If individual symbiotes are intelligent, then they too have their own goals and motivations. I doubt they would have any inclination on what such goals would BE until they were bonded to a mortal Spark. Suddenly they have access to his mind and his knowledge...the workings of the world are at least to some degree revealed to them. What would this do to it? Furhtermore, it would know the hosts thoughts and desires. In effect, they would be one mind with two bodies and two separate views.

Its difficult to decide exactly where to put them in terms of the setting.

I am loving the mortal hero idea you spouted though. It suits the setting, and makes absolute sense. I very much like the idea. Seeing as the Chimera feed off of doubts and fears and hate and whatnot, and can exist only by spreading more of it...a mortal hero inspiring thousands, or more, to his righteous cause would draw away a lot of this dark energy. Thus, the mortal hero could gain the ability one might consider Holy. They can harm the demons, and withstand the terrible energy which is manifested in the Chimera.

This is definitely going places.

I just wish I could get this intro written to my liking...I am having a helluva time writing the intro to Void and how it came to the world. I cannot decide exactly how it ended up in hibernation, why/how the Chimera came to be, etc. Perhaps this is a topic for another post, however.

[sayter]

Idea:

What if Sparks worked differently? The concept of them is cool, but something was off....I had this idea, talking with a comrade the other day.

Basically his stance was that Sparks seemed kinda pointless. It was a long discussion, but we had the idea that perhaps:

-Symbiotes are rarely "good guys". They are selfish creatures who basically just want an animate "ride" to get them around...and to eventualyl control.
-Whenever a mage uses a spell, we reference Sway. If he fails, he drops in sway. If he succeeds, he rises.
-The more "positive" the sway, the more control the caster has over the symbiote. The opposite applies in the negative.
-Fully postive means complete control of the symbiote. Completely negative means it controls you, totally and utterly.

This gives reason for a Sway mechanic for the Spark. It also makes a very, very interesting personal struggle. They are at odds with the very thing they absolutely NEED in order to cast spells. Yet that very creature coudl subjugate them and ultimately be little more than a Puppet Master. Skilled mages wont have an issue, but the poor ones will.

Think of it this way...if a mage plays correctly they only use magic when it is required...not to show off. Look at gandalf, for instance. He rarely acutally cast spells unless the situation called for it. Same goes for a lot of other stories as well. In Realm, if using this idea, those who cast spells non-stop would have the highest risk of losing themselves to their Symbiote. Those who were wise would not have this issue, as they would fail that much less.

Thoughts?

[sayter]

forgot to mention on the last post:

Additionally, the symbiote can cause mutations and other changes to the hosts body. This is based on their magick use. Failure increases sway towards Negative. Success increases towards Positive.

Basically, a symbiote "infection" only matures through using the magick it channels. Use more Fire magic, should be easier, because the bugger wont fight back so hard... try a healing spell You've never before tried and then poof...possible mutation. Enjoy your second pinkie toe on your right foot. This also has an interesting effect...in order to cast ANY spells, the Spark has to take somewhat of a licking because they have never cast any spells before. The symbiote doesnt mcuh care for the host, but the host needs it.

perhaps the mutations are a far better twist than allowing it to control the player. Mutation is, in its own right, pretty damn serious.


The real question is: does mutation suit the "class" , or would the mental aspect be more interesting? OR would it be better to try an entirely different approach. The original wasnt working, this seems a lot more awesome.

[Ramidel]

So...for a Spark, one has to use the power to sway to positive? That doesn't encourage "use less magic," what it seems to encourage is "cast a lot of mastered spells for no other reason than to tell your symbiots that you are the boss." Granted, this is thinking in maximize-power terms, but a smart Spark under these rules -would- smack his Symbiots around a bit just to make sure they don't get to thinking they can control or mutate him. Am I seeing "My Life With Master" played out between a Spark and his Symbiots?

Meanwhile, I see the Dreamers' Sway conflict as working pretty similarly. "Oh, I've been disintegrating a lot of reality lately, let me make a lot of pointless easy-to-create matter. There, better. Oh, have I healed too many wounds and do I feel the danger of becoming an Incarna? Let me disintegrate that boulder over there. Ah, I'm feeling more grounded in reality already." So there's again less "keep PCs from running amok with the power" incentive, and just a "balance the scales as easily as you can" incentive in the power. Is this intentional?

Also, while we're on the subject of Incarna...what are they, and what is their role in the world and the struggle against the Chimera.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  I like the mental mechanic better than the mutation mechanic better. The trick of it is that you need to come up with a motivation system for the symbiots, so that sway matters and that the player and GM knows where the negative sway is taking the character. Can Sparks do some research and find a compatible symbiot before using/merging with them?
  Originally, you had stated that the Sparks collect symbiots to gain new powers? How will Sparks get new powers with this new system, or will there be some multimensional sway bars with a direction for each symbiot?

[sayter]

Ramidel: Interesting points, and ones I don't ahve an easy answer to. This is preceisly why I love this forum, for the folks here point out info you can easily overlook on your own.

The way you put it seems a very feasible reality during play. I will have to think of a way to discourage "the easy way out" of Sway.

As for Incarna...I initially had thought of them as the polar opposite to the Chimera. However, I am toying with the idea, instead, of having severe positive Sway result in the Dreamer being absorbed into the Fabric, their energy becoming part of the infinite realm of their source of power.


dindenver:
     I am thinking that invidivual symbiotes will be more compatible for certain Sparks, yes. For the actual powers granted by a symbiote, I am leaning sorta in this direction now:

Spark without symbiote: capable of very miniscule magickal effects. A symbiote acts as a magnifier, allowing them to use their power to the fullest potential. In this way, a Spark could be a normal person able to perform some nifty tricks...but with a symbiote they become a lethal instrument. With that comes the danger of using just such a creature.
    Each symbiote would take a certain quality away from the Spark, or add a negative character trait (due to its effect on the wielder). More symbitoes would allow them to focus more aspects of their gift, but would add more issues at the same time (thus making multiple symbiotes a very risky, but reward laden endeavor).
    I am playing with different "types" of Sparks. Each would have a specific magickal set of abilities which could be levelled up over time. So for instance, you might have a Flame Spark:

Flame Spark:
Fire Aspect-The Spark takes on certain qualities of fire on his body. Whenever he activates this magick, this becomes evident to all 
                  that can see him. (Think "human torch")
Fire Control - The spark controls natural fire, and heat with this ability.
Fire Projection- The spark can create and expel flame.
Fire Infusion- The spark can infuse objects or individuals with qualities of fire, without harming the recipient.

Each ability would need to be levelled up individually, like skills. A symbiote might grant a + rating to certain parts of their ability, but
not too others. Lets assume without a symbitoe the maximum a Spark coudl reach is 3(of 6). They could thus still cause some neat
effects, but without a Symbiote they can never achieve their maximum potential.
    This is my current train of thought, at least. The more I conceptualize for Sparks the more I lean towards natural mages with very limited application of power (ie: they only are able to wield their particular gift of the Spark, and no others). The symbiotes are currently still included to make them different from Dreamers, and to give them a conflict that doesnt deal with common inter-personal or purely metaphysical issues.


Looking at Ramidels point, I think perhaps the easiest way to counter the sway issue is to make it so that in order to GAIN sway or LOSE sway, the expended power must be "equivalent" to their current level of Sway.

So if Bob has -4 Sway, and wanted to reach -3, he would need to perform 4 positive acts, or 1 really big positive act. So he would need to heal 4 people to gain +1, or heal 1 person for the equivalent of what 4 people would require. Would this, on its own, solve the potential for abuse in this circumstance?

[Bill Masek]

Chris,

You need to decide if you want sway to result from moral right and wrong or creation and destruction.  If it is right and wrong then the issue Ramidel brought up is irrelevant.  If the PC has committed to many acts of evil he will be forced to commit some acts of good to keep himself centered.  If you don't like this, you can say that an act of 'good' performed for selfish reasons is not good at all and thus gives no positive sway.  This would make it much easier to become a Chimera then their good equivlent and, I believe, supports your games objectives.

If you want creation/destruction to be the balance, then you don't need to worry about 'player abuse' at all.  It will be a nonissue.  Getting slightly close to a -1 from all that disintegration?  Summon a bolder above them.  Or inside of them.  You can hurt people just as effectively with creation as destruction.  As for healing, they could unmake the germs and infection to counteract the regeneration of the flesh.

Best,
        Bill

[sayter]

Another good point Bill. And you totally grasp what dreamers could accomplish. I love it :)

As for the destruction/creation vs good/evil thing:

I picture Mortal Heros as being driven by good/evil. I see Dreamers are beign influenced by Creation/Destruction, as they are linked to the Fabric directly and thus are subject to its laws and not-so-static aspects. In fact, ditching the "Incarna" aspect makes more and more sense overall. I very much like the idea of them rejoining the Fabric if they get too high (effectively character death), and becoming either a spawning ground for Chimera, or a Chimera themselves at too low a Sway.

As for the Sparks, that remains to be seen. Im thinking a blend of the two concepts. Mortals deal purely with good/evil, dreamers deal with more abstract ideas (creation and destruction) and Sparks deal with both issues. I think that actually fits well, since most "wizards" you read about may be good, or evil....but their motivations are usually difficult to figure out and often they do merely what is required regardless of what it may mean morally.

Given the nature of the world, I can see Sparks as both knowing they are special by birth and thus thinking they are better than their fellows...and also terrified of their power because of the potential enemies they may attract....and the issues they face with their symbiotes