Getting plastic toys for games made: Moulds

[komradebob]

I've been interested in games that use miniatures for ages. Cool toys were the in-road to rpgs for me many years ago. I want to know about the actual process of getting miniatures manufactured so that I can explore my options for creating toys that are designed specifically for my games. One option that seems regularly overlooked is plastic figures. Generally, this seems an issue of price; getting a mold made and figures produced appears to be a damn big monetary gamble for the indie designer. However, the exact level of money involved is a bit of a mystery. I've seen a huge range of prices discussed, from a couple grand to tens of thousands for the creation of a single mold.

As it turns out, Darcy Burgess is a professional mold-maker. I've been talking about the issue with Darcy, and I've decided to post here so that everyone can get in on the conversation. Here are a few key questions (some of which Darcy answered by pm, but I'm repeating here for clarity) that I was curious about:

What different materials can a mold be made from?
-How does this affect the cost to produce?
-How does this affect detail on the item?
-Is it cheaper to make a mold for very basic figures with less detail (like toy soldiers) or does this have very little to do with the actual price of the mold?
-Does that material being injected affect the type of mold material used? For example, if I want something made from model airplane plastic, would I need a different type of mold than if I wanted something made from toy soldier plastic?

How big is a mold and how many different pieces can a single mold contain? How might I estimate this?

Do I need to know the machine type that will be used to manufacture the toys for a mold to be made, or are there some sorts of industry standards on size?

Just how much does this cost, realistically?

In all cases, I'm referring specifically to plastic figures. Traditional metal gaming miniatures are a different animal, so if anyone wants to discuss that, we can start a different thread.

If anyone wants to chime in with related issues, such as where one might take the mold to have the actual manufacturing done, please go ahead. We can create new threads if necessary.

Darcy should be along shortly. As a courtesy to Darcy, please refrain from asking how you too can start making molds in your basement for pennies a day. I'd like this thread to be a more generalized business thread.

Thanks,
Robert

[Darcy Burgess]

Hi.  Card-Carrying Mould Maker here.  The text that follows occasionally sounds a little...ardent.  It's not my intention to offend or shock.  I just want to establish that I'm going to take this thread really, really seriously.  We can have fun, but Robert's basic idea of a "business discussion" is going to be the guiding principle for me.

So, I fully intend to answer some of Robert's questions -- but before I get into it, I want to see if anyone else has any other questions so that I can gear my responses to help out everyone.

I'd also like to thank Robert for mentioning "pennies a day" mould making.  It doesn't exist.  If you're talking about taking a wax negative of a Citadel/Ral Partha/Whatever mini and pouring resin into it...you don't need to ask me any questions.  That's not what I do (and I probably don't know much more about it than you do...)

Mould making is more akin to Tool and Die making, which means cutting big pieces of metal very, very accurately.

How accurately?  Pull out a hair on your head.  Odds are pretty good that it's .003 to .005 of an inch thick (that's right -- 3 to 5 thousandths of an inch).  This isn't a boasting thing, but I can work that precisely while I'm drunk and sleeping .  A good Mouldmaker doesn't break a sweat at .001 accuracy.

And guess what -- that stuff doesn't come cheap.

Finally, you Yanks may be rankling at the term "mould".  Tough.  I speak the Queen's English, and it says "Mould" on my Provincial license.  So that's how I'll spell it.  I won't think any less of you for spelling it wrong, though.  :grin:

[David Johansen]

Hello, I come from rpg.net to speak of these things called moulds.

My understanding is, that you need sculpts that don't have undercuts to lift out of the metal moulds used for plastics.  Generally they need to be oversized sculpts too.  Also, the plastic doesn't so much melt and flow as get soft enough to ram into the mould under a great deal of pressure.  The mould itself will start at around $50k for a pretty small and basic one, but the costs can run up fast.  The plastic for the figures is then significantly cheaper than the current tin, silver, and zinc alloy used in metal miniatures.

Then there's the cost of the machine, which isn't cheap to buy and adds a significant amount to the cost per figure if you just rent one belonging to someone elses.

I've heard that you can get electroplated resin moulds for much less money but I don't know how well they work or how long they last.  Games Workshop had some pretty good articles on the production of their plastics in White Dwarf some years back.

[guildofblades]

Hi,

Doing plastic injection molding has been something we have investigated (a little) in the past. Those of you that know the Guild know we do almost all of our production in house. So we've looked into what it would take to bring plastic injection molding in house as well.

>>What different materials can a mold be made from?<<

Really depends what scale of business you are shooting for. If you we inclined to do the work, you could get a plastic "pour" style mold made out of wood, clay, etc. For this kind of mould, you merely keep the plastic heated to melting point, then pour an appropriate amount into the mold till it fills up. Let sit until the plastic cools completely, then separat the mold pieces to remove the piece. As you can imagine, this is SLOW. To do any real amount of production with this method, you will probably need to have multiples of each mold made. Though if made out of clay, this shouldn't be too expensive. Then once you have heated plastic ready to pour, you can pour a dozen or two dozen molds (or however many) all at once. You can find any number of hobby molding kits and instricution booklets for doing plastics this way.

Now, to do any real kinds of volumes...and to get the figures at the cheapest production rates possible, then you are talking about plastic injection molding and thatsa whole nother ball of wax. Injection molds come in all sorts sizes materials and costs. From what I understand, how long a mold will be good for will depend on how stronga metal is used to make it. For instance, some cheap molds can crap out after only making 10K to 20K casts. While really good molds can be good for well over 100,000, maybe as many as 500,000 or more. Truth be told, I'm not too sure what the top end is because I've known the kinds of products my company makes will likely never need to be produced in those volumes. lol.

>>-How does this affect the cost to produce?<<

Cost of production of the figures being cast should be unchanged based on what kind of material is being made. Excepting that the really large molds generally mandate stronger materials. But for game figures and parts, very rarely should you ever need anything other than the smallest sized molds.

>>-How does this affect detail on the item?<<

The better the materials, the better the quality as I understand it. But I seriously doubt most game type figures require the higher levels of detail. Even the best of gaming figures.

>>-Is it cheaper to make a mold for very basic figures with less detail (like toy soldiers) or does this have very little to do with the actual price of the mold?<<

Absolutely no clue.

>>How big is a mold and how many different pieces can a single mold contain? How might I estimate this?<<

Depends on the injection mold machine. I've had molds quoted to be made out in the orient. A plastic injection mold that would hold between 16 to 20 caveaties large enough to make 15 to 20mm figures can be purchased for as little as $2k. Now, this is an el cheapo mold. I was told that for a mold of that quality we would be lucky to see more tha 75,000 casts for it before its quality degrades to the point where it would have to be replaced.

>>Do I need to know the machine type that will be used to manufacture the toys for a mold to be made, or are there some sorts of industry standards on size?<<

Well, unless you plan on owning the machine itself and operating it, then no, you don't need to know this type of thing. But you most certainly will want to work with a mold maker who knows these things. lol.

>>Just how much does this cost, realistically?<<

Well, looking at the absolute cheapest options.

Mold Making $2,000  (20 15mm figures per mold)

Paying Scultors to make 20 figures (going rates is about $300 per fig, but you can work all sorts of deals here. Including tracking down figures owned by defunct companies and buying existing scultps). So anyway from a couple hundred to $6,000 to $10,000.

Running a plastic injection mold machine has some similarities to an offset printing press. In that it takes a bit to set everything up, but once its set up its pretty automated. So if you are paying someone to do yur casting, expect 1,000 casts to be pretty expensive. At 5,000 the costs becomes a bit more reasonable. The more you do, the cheaper it gets...effectively down to the basic markup over raw plastic costs the company will charge.

In real world terms, I have recieved quotes that worked out to about $.01 per figure at the 5,000 cast run size. That was for a 16 sprig tree (16 caveaties on the mold) . So $.16 x 5,000, plus the cost of shipping and importing from China.

Though I have seen the actual costs of the plastics. Figures of that size only cost maybe $.002 per figure in raw material costs.  So we've looked into buying our own plastic injection mold machine (seen them running $5k to $15k on the used market) and doing the casting ourselves. But....still wouldn't dream of trying to actually make the mold...that I would outsource to someone who knows what they are doing.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com

[komradebob]

But....still wouldn't dream of trying to actually make the mold...that I would outsource to someone who knows what they are doing.

Me neither, that's why I pounced on Darcy.lol.

Paying Scultors to make 20 figures (going rates is about $300 per fig, but you can work all sorts of deals here. Including tracking down figures owned by defunct companies and buying existing scultps). So anyway from a couple hundred to $6,000 to $10,000.

Sweat equity? I think David and myself were both thinking in terms of doing initial sculptsets ourselves.

Now, this is an el cheapo mold. I was told that for a mold of that quality we would be lucky to see more tha 75,000 casts for it before its quality degrades to the point where it would have to be replaced.

That means 75k full trees correct? Not 5,000 trees with 15 figures each? That's a heckuva lot of minis out of a single mould.

Did they give you any sort of indication what the figure quality would be like from a mould at that price? I've seen horrible ( BUM airfix recasts, some generic britains recasts) through okay ( homies, clix, britains) to pretty good for plastic (tamiya, GW).

In real world terms, I have recieved quotes that worked out to about $.01 per figure at the 5,000 cast run size. That was for a 16 sprig tree (16 caveaties on the mold) . So $.16 x 5,000, plus the cost of shipping and importing from China.

Sigh. If only there was someone domestically that could do runs at these prices and avoid all the cross-border b.s..

Oh, wait...

Though I have seen the actual costs of the plastics. Figures of that size only cost maybe $.002 per figure in raw material costs.  So we've looked into buying our own plastic injection mold machine (seen them running $5k to $15k on the used market) and doing the casting ourselves.

Ever consider doing some work for other folks?

[guildofblades]

>>Sweat equity? I think David and myself were both thinking in terms of doing initial sculptsets ourselves.<<

Sweat equity only works if:

1) You have that talent to begin with (no one here at the Guild does) and
2) You are doing this project with your hobby time. If publishing is your full time gig, that time has to be accounted for.

>>That means 75k full trees correct? Not 5,000 trees with 15 figures each? That's a heckuva lot of minis out of a single mould.<<

Yes, but remember, 75,000 was the best case scenario. It could easily end up being just 50,000. Now, even this has to be factored into the costs. $.04 per spig produced, so a game like Axis & Allies which has about 300 plastic figures, mold depreciation would still run $.75 per game. That adds up.

>>Did they give you any sort of indication what the figure quality would be like from a mould at that price? I've seen horrible ( BUM airfix recasts, some generic britains recasts) through okay ( homies, clix, britains) to pretty good for plastic (tamiya, GW).<<

They would be comperable to A&A figures or average Airifix figures is my guess. GW uses harder plastics which makes it an apples and oranges comparison there. I suspecty the harder plastics are more expansive, but am not sure.

>>Ever consider doing some work for other folks?<<

Well, maybe someday. We're still saving up for a decent sized piece of commercial property first.  Plastic injection mold machines are NOT small. A few of the cheaper models we have seen looked to run about 10 feet by 16 feet, plus theneccessary operating room you would need. And storage for the plastic granuals in their separate bins. But frankly, even if wehave the machine, I am not sure we can provide casting services profitably. Or at least not at any price I would consider functional for small publishers.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com

[David Johansen]

Keep in mind that most plastics burn before they melt.  Trust me on this one, don't try melting some old sprues and pouring them into a clay mould.  No really, just don't.

Anyhow, you can do resin for around a hundred bucks for the mould and around fifty bucks for enough alluminite resin for a couple hundred figures.  You really need to be careful in how you vent the mould or it won't fill in properly.  It's usually best to have a pour channel that goes to the bottom of the figure and fills from there rather than pouring top down.

You basically build the mould in a spring form cake pan and use a blender base to build your spin caster, but even then you won't be getting any really thin sword blades to fill in with anything short of pewter or lead.

Injection moulding is an entirely different beast.  Keep in mind when considering getting moulds made in China, that I-core got theirs made there and they came in at tripple the size they ordered.  The delay and cost was one of the factors that burried the company.

[Darcy Burgess]

Great -- I'm glad to see that it didn't take long for this thread to take off.  I'm not going to comment on pour-moulding as that's not my area of experience (although I've made one or two).  My expertise lies squarely in injection moulding.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, I'm going to open up with a quick vocabulary primer.  This will have a 2-fold benefit: 1) it will help keep stuff clear in this thread,  and 2) if you use this lingo with mould makers, they're less likely to treat you like a potential mark and try to milk you for a bucketload.  Some of these terms are in fact slang, but within the industry they're highly accepted slang.

Shot - whatever comes out of a mould after one complete cycle.  "Cast" is also sometimes used, but runs the risk of confusion with the manufacturing process of casting.

Press - what has been referred to, up until now, as a "mould machine".  They're usually rated in tons, which refers to the pressure with which they can hold the halves of the mould together.  For reference, a 15 ton press is roughly the size of a my '98 Honda Civic hatchback (a little narrower) and is generally considered small.

Cavities & Cores - the specific area of the mould where the parts you want are formed.  Technically, cavities (or "stationary side") only do 1/2 of the work -- the other half is made by the core (or "moving side").  However, when you say "I want an 8 cavity mould", your intention is clear.  If you've ever looked at a model car, odds are pretty good that the exterior surface of the bodywork was made in the cavity, and the inside surface in the core.

Parting Line - where the cavity and the core of the mould actually touch.  There is always some kind of a line on the part that remains as a witness to this.

Sprue - the piece of plastic in a shot that's the last to solidify.  It's also the piece that's closes to the throat (point of injection) of the press, so it's the area where the plastic leaves the press and enters the mould.

Runner - the piece of plastic in a shot that carries the molten material from the area of the sprue to the cavities.  The big thing that people in the modelling hobby commonly call as Sprue (what you have to cut your model pieces off of before assembly) is actually a runner.

Gate - the specific feature that allows the plastic to enter the cavity from the runner.  Often, it's just a tiny hole.

Flash - plastic leaking out of the mould.  Some flash (say, around the runner) isn't a big deal.  However, if your finished part is flashing, that's a bigger problem -- you'll have to add a supplemental operation (trimming the flash) to manufacturing, and that costs $$$.

Mould Maker - this should be used to refer to the individual tradesperson who actually does the hands-on work of making the mould.  But, it's often also used to refer to an organization that undertakes the same work.  I've used it in the second sense in my introductory paragraph.

Now, on to a few clarifications:

burning vs melting  There are two broad categories of plastics: thermoplastics and thermosets.  Thermoplastics melt.  They're what are usually used in injection moulding (nylon, polypropylene, delrin are examples).  Thermosets actually harden under heat (bakelite is one kind) and aren't used as much in injection moulding -- they're more often used in compression moulding & rotomoulding (large children's toys like little tikes slides are rotomoulded).

If you're experiencing burning, 2 things are likely happening: you're either trying to melt a thermoset, which just won't work, OR you're applying heat directly to the plastic.  Even a thermoplastic will burn if held in the flame of a lighter.  It's a different story if you put it in a cauldron and heat the cauldron.

Press size - not all presses are monsters.  I've seen a little prototyping press that would comfortably sit on most dining room tables.  Now, it didn't handle large capacity work -- it was great for doing things like running a 2 cavity mould for making golf tees.  However, small machines do exist, and depending on the production rates you need (and $ per cycle), they may be an option.  They're also a heck of a lot less intimidating.

Cost as a function of what the mould's made out of - I'm going to squarely disagree with Ryan here.  A mould made out of Aluminium is going to be much less costly than one made with hardened tool steel inserts.  A mould made out of mild steel (less tough than hardened tool steel, but tougher than Aluminium) will fall somewhere in between.

It isn't the cost of the materials that affects the final pricetag.  It's the labour.  Aluminium is much easier and quicker to work than steel, and hardened steel is much more difficult.  That being said, there's only so much you can do to bring labour costs down -- cutting time is about 1/4 to 1/8 of  your total labour time, so that should give a sense of how much you can save through materials.

David raises an interesting point -- there are alternative processes out there.  I've never dealt with electroplated resin myself, but I can certainly see where it would save a lot on labour.  In fact, with the right resources (namely a decent machine shop willing to do small quantity work for you, reliable shipping to and from a plating house, and a plating house that will work in small quantities) at hand, you could probably do very well with these.  This has piqued my interest, so I'm going to do a little research on my own.

Now, on to some of the questions:

Cost as a function of Detail -- before getting too deep into this subject, I need to clarify where my experience lies in the industry.  I apprenticed and worked for Black and Decker -- the moulds we made were for making big, robust power tools.  Not miniatures.  That being said, injected plastic can hold just about any detail that cast metal can.  Particularly sharp edges and pointy bits are a problem not because the plastic can't do it, but because the part will be much more fragile than pewter or lead.

I can also tell you that if you can avoid the sculpting stage of miniatures, you're going to save some significant coin.  If you can define your part as a 3d computer model, the mould maker can take that model and use it to cut the shape directly into the mould.  If you go this route (likely by working with a good cgi artist with some knowledge of CAD/CAM -- I don't know if these guys & girls exist, but I'd be surprised if they didn't), try to limit the sharpness of the edges on your part to 1/32" rounds, and make your minis no more than 1/4" deep on either side of the parting line. This will mean that the entire core/cavity will be able to be produced on one machine.

Undercuts -- if you're moulding out of hard plastic, undercuts are a huge issue.  I'll let you know that a part with undercuts can be moulded, but it will easily double your mould cost.  However, soft plastics (like the minis in Memoir '44) let you bend this rule to a certain degree.  Your cost will still be higher, but the fact that the plastic will bend as it's ejected from the mould will avoid the big ticket items (multiple parting lines, slides, hydraulics....)

Cost as a function of Plastic -- yes, some plastics will require very tough mould materials.  However, these are things like glass-filled nylon (very abrasive) and other esoteric compounds.  Big-time manufacturers only use this stuff when they have to, and unless you're planning on using your minis to hold up your house, you don't need to either.  Some plastics also have incredibly high melting points, but again, they're very very special purpose materials.

Estimating mould Size -- it's pretty easy.  To begin with, just accept the fact that your mould maker will probably want you to ask for a 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 (notice the progression?)....n cavity mould.  Pick your # of cavities.  Divide in 2. Now, build a grid with that many boxes in it.  Make sure that each side of the grid has an even number of spaces.  Each box in the grid should be about 1/2" larger than your part.  Now, mirror image the grid -- leaving about a 1.5" gap between the two grids.  Finally, add a border about 1.5" wide around the whole shebang.  That's a pretty good idea of how big the footprint of your mould will be.  In terms of height, you're likely looking at somewhere between 10" and 20".  The height of the mould is more a function of how much injection pressure will be required to fill the mould -- the more cavities, the more pressure.

Press Capacities -- like Ryan said, you shouldn't need to worry about this, unless you're planning on putting a press in-house.  In that case, you should definitely have a very clear idea about what size moulds you'll be running.  This is where having a good Mould Maker working for you is helpful -- they know all this technical mumbo jumbo.

Running your Own press -- don't.  Not unless you're prepared to go work on an assembly line somewhere and get some press time under your belt.  Or hire someone who has.  They're finicky atrocious beasts.  Sure, the new ones are great -- nice computer controls, very reliable, blah blah blah.  But let's be honest -- they're really, really expensive.

The Big Question -- Cost -- a lot of Ryan's numbers sound just about right.  Going to China will save you big time over north America or Europe.  And there's no need to worry about the quality coming out of the far east -- get a half dozen quotes, and throw out the outliers -- they're either milking you or so hungry for work you're not likely to ever see your product (they'll go under).  That's your price.  Why am I not giving you hard numbers?  Because so much of it is a function of the specific features of your part, and my specific experience isn't with minis, so I don't know exactly what pitfalls to expect.

So, where to from here?

[Ben Lehman]

Hi.

This is a cool thread.

Since doing business in China is getting mentioned a lot, I'd just like to note that it is really easy to either:
1) Get screwed up by a miscommunication with a Chinese company.
2) Get taken by a faked "miscommunication" with a Chinese company.

Not to say you shouldn't do business in China, but that you should proceed with some caution and triple-check everything.  Having someone who speaks fluent Mandarin and English help you wouldn't be a bad idea.

Carry on.

yrs--
--Ben

[guildofblades]

As for "doing business in china", if you donot have people in China that can do these talks on your behalf, my recommendation is to find a company here in the US that does regular business there. Such as Mr Chips or Grand Prix International.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com

[Darcy Burgess]

I know several large Chinese mould companies have North American offices -- these are the people you do business with.  They're also the people you rant at when the product is wrong.

Right now, mould makers are really hurting for work -- the financial debacle that the big 3 automakers are currently ensconced in has hurt the mould industry in northam.  The time may be right to drive a hard bargain domestically -- I know that in past dry spells, mould makers would take jobs on at cost or a very slim profit just to keep the doors open.

[komradebob]

Ryan:
Out of curiosity, what were the price quotes for both mould and production costs from domestic firms?

[komradebob]

I've heard that you can get electroplated resin moulds for much less money but I don't know how well they work or how long they last. 

I know that this thread has dropped off the radar, but does anyone have any follow up on this point?

[guildofblades]

>>Ryan:
Out of curiosity, what were the price quotes for both mould and production costs from domestic firms?<<

It was sourced from a domestic plastics and game bits/parts spplier that outsources the work to China.

I am talking with a small firm up in Michigan currently about doing everything local. Some ballpark figures talked about so far seem reasonable, but I'll have to hold judgement until we get something more solid.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

So is there a place where you can order Axis and Allies size WWII minis for your own game?

Peace,

-Troy