[Realm] Feedback: Mortal Heroes

[sayter]

Now that I have the setting to a spot that is comfortable enough to start designing systems to suit it, I am left with somewhat of a dilemma.

Dreamers and Sparks both have their sets of abilities and powers, as well as their inherent drawbacks. Mortal Heroes are still getting the short end of the stick, to a point.

So, I though "What should mortal heroes get, in the way of powers?"  Bill, myself, and those who are helping me in the "real world" off the net have mashed ideas together. We came up with the idea that they are the leaders of the world (in a sense), able to inspire others with their ideals and change the face of the world for the better...or for the absolute worst.

But what exactly does this mean? How does one write this into the mechanic? Not every player is going to want to field a monstrous army or spend their play time talking with beggars and tavern rats in order to gain a following. How do we give them power, but not force them to use it in a particular way?

I came up with an idea....I am not a big fan of "list tables" or anything of the sort. But it seems no RPG is truly complete without at least a couple of these suckers. In Realm, all skills, powers and other details thus far are list-free and are essentialyl chosen by the player and worded in whatever fashion they desire. Mortal Heroes, however, dont really have the same sort of flexibility inherent to the other character types. They cant just fabricate something from their mind into reality, or cast a fireball and envelop 50 soldiers in agonizing death.

I have given them(and the name is extremely tentative since it sounds a tad basic at the moment) Heroic Gifts.

Heroic Gifts vary, but in their most basic form, they divide into 4 different groups:

Leadership- Allows a hero to lead the masses, increase morale, etc. Excellent for political or military characters.
Inspiration- A hero can motivate, inspire and bring great works to fruition. Best for artistic/creative characters.
Prowess- With these gifts, the hero increases his combative capability (or the ability of others). Obviously good for warrior types.
????? - ???????

As you can see, the 4th "group" is blank. I was thinking of Secrecy, or something else related to stealth and so forth. But I am not sure this is necessary. Initially I had Motivation and Inspiration as two diffeernt groups, but that made no sense since both can be lumped together. Opionions on a viable 4th group are welcome. If I cant find one, I will simply use 3. The goal was to have 1 group for each of the four Virtues.


Now, Heroic Gifts are unique, in that they do NOT "level up" like other powers from the Dreamer or Spark character types. Instead, their powers directly feed off of either a particular Virtue, or their current level of Sway.

In their current form, the player can "buy" a heroic gift with their XP. Once purchased, they can develop it gradually. Each Gift is divided up sort of like Exalted charm trees, in that there is a core power on which the others are derived. However, they have access only to a certain number of powers. I am not yet sure how to limit this, but that will come in time.

Heres an example

Prowess-----------Melee Effectiveness-------------------One with the Blade--------------------Rage of the Hero
            -----------Defensive Effectiveness---------------Tortoise Shell Defense----------------Avoidance

In this way, a Hero must select a particular branch of powers that suit the players style. They are immediately limited to a certain range of abilities. Lets take Prowess first, for the hero Kevin the Destroyer.

Kevin has a Sway level of 1 Negative. This gives his a +1 to all rolls involving evil actions, but a -1 to all rolls involving good-guy actions. The power "Prowess" states that "The Hero increases his combat potential against those who oppose him (opposite alignment), and gains his current Sway level against them. Those of the same alignment are unaffected."

This means whenever he faces off against someone that is Good, and opposes him, he gains a +1 bonus to all combat rolls vs that individual. If bob commits a whole lot more evil, and sinks to the "top" tier of evil Sway, he will get a total of +4 vs anyone that is a good guy. Evil folks have nothing to fear (this includes Chimera and monsters) in this regard, and all his rolls will function as normal.

Other powers might instead be derived from their Virtues (not 100% sure on this though yet, since virtues can ultimately vanish altogether if someone is blacck hearted enough...at which point their power would be useless....).


Does this seem a viable concept? Or would I be better off to lump a bunch of different powers onto a set list, instead of into 4 "groups"....so a character could pick "Defense Master" and "Inspire Creativity" if they desired, withotu having to jump through hoops to get them?


In the end, I want them to have powers that are essentially "always active", but can be controlled by their ethical and moral choices (Virtues, Sway). Their powers can be used for good or evil just as effectively this way.

Thoughts?

[sayter]

Suppose I should note that (if it wasnt already obvious) that Heroic Gifts are specific to mortal heroes. Sparks and dreamers do not get access to these abilities.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Well, I have posted this before, but maybe I wasn't clear. It seems like you hae three main character types and it also seems that they have VERY differing power levels. If you are to accurately protray these powers as you describe them, there is no doubt that Dreamers will always trump Sparks and Sparks will always trump Mortal Heroes. And that is how you actually want it, it's not a design flaw or a weakness in your system. And that is the gaff, you need to find a game balance mechanism that represents this spectrum of power, but gives players a reason to play Sparks and Heroes. My suggestion is that Sway or other mechanics should have less dramatic or even no effect on the other two player types. Something like this:
Dreamers - Great power, but their power is influenced by the Sway of the world which they have almost no control over
Sparks - Moderate power, but their power is balanced only by there own emotions, which they could, theoretically, control
Mortals - Low power (still more than other mortals) and no reason/mechanic not to do whatever they want.
  Just a thought...

[Bill Masek]

Chris,

Are you familiar with Troll Babe by Dr. Ron Edwards?  In Troll Babe, if a specific kind interaction occurs between a PC and NPC(s) (in that system its anything requiring a dice roll) the player may add that player may add that NPC(s) as a relationship.  These relationships may be between the PC and an individual or a group.  Once relationships are formed, they may later be used by the player for positive effect.  This effect brings the NPC(s) into the story.  There is no power difference in Troll Babe between any two relationships.

I would consider a similar model in your Inspiration mechanic.  Instead of having the player choose a single power-set from a list and having that powerset grow, make each relationship a psudo-power onto itself.

Heroes may, once per session for each relationship, do one of the following
     -reroll any single dice in a conflict which will have a direct impact on the inspired NPC(s)
     -reroll any single dice in a conflict in which the hero directly supports the value he inspired in that NPC(s)
     -redirect any magical effect from himself to inspired NPC(s).  This breaks the bond.

In addition, a inspired NPCs may be willing to follow the PC.  They are treated as regular NPCs only they are completely loyal to the Mortal Hero until he undermines the value he inspired in them or the bond is broken through magical redirection.

Dreamers, Sparks and even Chimera can not detect the bond between Mortal Heroes and their followers.  But if a Mortal Hero has a large roving army around him at all times it would not be hard for a powerful magical entity to destroy them.  So as long as the Inspired NPCs stay away the Mortal Hero they will always be accessible for the above three abilities.  If they choose to follow they will provide more utility, but be at greater risk.  The choice is up to the Mortal Hero.

Also note how this puts Mortal Heroes on the same playing field as Dreamers and Sparks without making them much more powerful against mere mortals.

Best,
        Bill

[sayter]

valid and usefdul ideas from both of you.

The only issue I see with your concept , Bill, is that there is already a "reroll" machinic in place, in the form of Fate points. Allowing more than one reroll mechanic is bad. I like Fate, so I am keeping it in for the time being.

That. and I had a grandeer vision of what mortal herroes could do. They get leadership powers, yes, inspiration etc....but that isnt enough to set them apart as anything but "slightly more than useless".

I want them to have a varied field of "powers" they cn call on. They are tthe best of the best, of the best. They are the steven Hawkings, Arnold Schwarzeneggers, Joan of Arcs and Rasputins of the world. They all have their bad points, but all are exceptionally beyond average in the area in which they are gifted.

ie: why play Duncan, when you can play Paul Atreides? Sure, Duncan can kick ass. But Paul can do it harder, faster and better. Why play a mere red pill, when you can play Neo? etc.

It's certainly a difficult thing, to make mortals viable but not overly so. They arent supposed to be "equal" to dreamers or sparks in the general sense. They cant shape reality or channel magick like the other two. They never will be able to (unless the mortal becomes a dreamer in the storyline, of course). Instead they need to rely only on the gifts they were born with and their own soul and spirit. They gain their strength through themselves and through the minds of their communities, contacts and loved ones.

Perhaps if we divide their "gifts" a little less? Maybe we have Ego and Id powers? (Personality and Personal, respecctively) and they can develop each particular area as they see fit?

*continues the brainstorm*

oh and Bill, I have about 80 pages done now. If you want me to send the roughs along for your perusal, I would gladly do so.

[Bill Masek]

Chris,

I used rerolls in my suggestion because they are a currency that any game system can use.  Alternatively you could double a stat value, refresh combat points (I think that's what you called them) or gain some other kind of effect.  I would have to look at the rules further before suggesting the actual currency which should be used.  Also, if you go with this idea, consider giving the Mortal Heroes a massive, reusable bonus when fighting Chimera and other purely magical entities based on the number of Inspired NPCs they have.  Perhaps (Damage) X (# of Inspired).

If it is an issue of making Mortal Heroes seem more heroic, just increase the amount of currency you give them.  X2 stat doesn't work?  Give them x5.  Or maybe +10.  The important thing is that their power are directly connected to the people they inspired.  It is the connection them cool and unique.  There are thousands of RPGs where you can play a baddass who kicks butt.  Very few reflect the reciprocal nature of heroic inspiration I believe Realm is capable of.

The beauty of my recommendation is that it makes Mortal Heroes equal to magical beings when fighting them, but they are still far less then Dreamers/Sparks when it comes to other mortals.  This makes sense if they are a sort of avatar of free will.

What stage of completion is your system in?  I'd be happy to take a look at your rough draft for you, but the way I will read it and the feedback I'll give will vary depending on how far along it is.

Best,
        Bill

[sayter]

I'll toss everything i have into a single file today, bill. The entire thing has a long way to go yet, but there is a good base to work around at this point. Enough for you to grasp the concepts at any rate.

[joepub]

Are you familiar with Troll Babe by Dr. Ron Edwards?  In Troll Babe, if a specific kind interaction occurs between a PC and NPC(s) (in that system its anything requiring a dice roll) the player may add that player may add that NPC(s) as a relationship.  These relationships may be between the PC and an individual or a group.  Once relationships are formed, they may later be used by the player for positive effect.  This effect brings the NPC(s) into the story.  There is no power difference in Troll Babe between any two relationships.

I would consider a similar model in your Inspiration mechanic.  Instead of having the player choose a single power-set from a list and having that powerset grow, make each relationship a psudo-power onto itself.

Heroes may, once per session for each relationship, do one of the following
     -reroll any single dice in a conflict which will have a direct impact on the inspired NPC(s)
     -reroll any single dice in a conflict in which the hero directly supports the value he inspired in that NPC(s)
     -redirect any magical effect from himself to inspired NPC(s).  This breaks the bond.

In addition, a inspired NPCs may be willing to follow the PC.  They are treated as regular NPCs only they are completely loyal to the Mortal Hero until he undermines the value he inspired in them or the bond is broken through magical redirection.

Dreamers, Sparks and even Chimera can not detect the bond between Mortal Heroes and their followers.  But if a Mortal Hero has a large roving army around him at all times it would not be hard for a powerful magical entity to destroy them.  So as long as the Inspired NPCs stay away the Mortal Hero they will always be accessible for the above three abilities.  If they choose to follow they will provide more utility, but be at greater risk.  The choice is up to the Mortal Hero.

Sayter, I suggest incorporating this.
Maybe instead of a re-roll, they follow your leadership instead.

Maybe if you interact with them once they`re fascinated by you, so much so that they'd want to see you again.
Maybe if they interact again, they will be indetted enough to you to help you build a house if you ask them, etc (think Faith of the Fallen, from the sword of truth series)
Maybe if they interact with you again, they'd be willing to serve you.

Something to that degree maybe? Anyways, Bill definately seems to be onto something.

[sayter]

I'm feeling it too, joepub :) I am a massive Ricahrd Rahl fan. To me he represents the very essence of heroics..constant struggle with oneself against impossible odds, but not forsaking that which he holds most dear, even if it means allowing millions to die. Of course, if push came to shove he'd join the final battle, but not until he was sure everyone he loved was safe.

And if anyone died, the enemy would not be happy.

To top it off, he deals with people on their level. He doesnt think himself superior, but he is absolutely positively sworn to his beliefs...but he is willing to change those beliefs if proof is given and the truth is seen...even if it means that everything he stood for was wrong.

A very interesting character is the result.


So the question is, how to make it more compelling for the individual hero?


Obviously soem bonus modifiers would come into play. To that end, adding a few points here and there would prove most efficient. But not every hero is going to lead through inspiration. Some will do it through fear, betrayal, or any other means they desire. Many wont want to lead at all. Therefore, it must be possible to have many choices for the heroic mortal character. Locking every player into a "must do this" course of action is never as much fun as allowing choice :)

I know I would enjoy the sort of character that would lead similar to Rahl. But, three in my regular game group wouldn't.

[Bill Masek]

Sayter,

Ok, consider this...

Flavor:

Mortal Heroes travel the land, inspiring people by their actions.

They inspire values in these people.  This in turn spurns the hero to greatness.

The hero might have armies following him.  He might be alone.  The important thing is the values he has inspired in others.

Mechanics:
When a Mortal Hero Inspires a Value in an NPC (or group of NPCs) they must keep track of the following...

Name of NPC
Value Inspired
Associated Sway

If the value is "good" it will be associated with positive sway.  If it is "evil" it will be associated with negative sway.  So if the MH inspires an NPC to "Other people are nothing but tools to your ambitions" the sway would be negative.

When a Mortal Hero performs another action which supports the value he inspired in the NPC he may use one of these relationships to enhance his roll.  Each relationship may only be used once per session.

The effect of using this relationship will vary based on how close the HM's sway is to the extream of the Associate Sway of the relationship.  So a -8 Sway hero would get a large bonus from using a negatively inspired relationship, but a minimal bonus from positive ones.

Possible effects:  (reversed for negative sway)
-10 to -9:  No effect, to far away from target number
-8 to -1:  +1 bonus to a single roll
0:  +3 bonus to a single roll and +1 to all rolls for the rest of conflict
1 to 5:  +5 bonus for a single roll and +2 to all rolls for the rest of conflict
6 to 8:  As above, but refreshes combat pool
9 to 10:  As above.  Alternatively may shunt magical effects to NPC.  This destroys relationship.

In addition to this, MHs can have their relationships follow them around.  As long as the MH's Sway is the same as the NPC's Associated Sway the NPC will follow the hero.  If the HMs sway shifts to the otherside they will become less loyal and begin to leave him.

This would allow for a huge variety of possible MHs.  There are as many different kinds as their are value systems.

Best,
       Bill

[dindenver]

Hi!
  OK, here's an idea, what if Dreamers are effected by the Sway of the world, and Heroes effect the sway of the world, and never the twain shall meet...

[sayter]

great, very great ideas Bill.

Didnever: Initially that was the idea. Dreamers were to be affected by everyone ELSES way of seeing things. So if they cast a horrific spell in town, the mortals may not know the source, but they sure as hell see a 20 ft demon as evil. That would thus be a negative sway shift. But that was just too damn hard to moderate in terms of the game mechanics. Arguments would be so common, it wasnt worth it.