System Recommendations

[Maitete]

Hello all!

I'm not sure this is the right location for this post, but here goes.

I have been an unconscious Narrativist gamer for many years, and have just recently had the liberating experience of finding roleplaying systems that support my approach.  I had actually come to the conclusion that I was crazy, or that such games didn't exist.  Then I found The Forge, and have been feverishly collecting recommended titles and reading and/or playing them over the last year or so.

I currently own (or have on order) the following:

-Sorcerer (+ all supplements)
-Dying Earth
-Hero Wars Deluxe Edition
-HeroQuest
-Everway

I love all of these, and intend to run them all as soon as feasible.  One thing I'm fascinated by is a system that allows for ease of preparation.  Since I tend to be the GM for these games, and I'm married with kid, I have to budget my prep time carefully.  With regard to statistics and measurables, all of the above are easier to prep for than say, D&D 3.5 or the HERO system for example.  Intricate relationship mapping and bang creation, as well as other artistic preparations may take time, but I enjoy that time, so it's no big deal.

That being said, I'm trying to find other systems that reduce statistical NPC creation time, and generally make it easier for the GM to go into a session with little or no prep.  I am reasonably good at improvisation, but any recommendations on techniques or frameworks to use would make me even better.

Thanks,

Tony

P.S. I'd like to thank all of the dedicated folks at The Forge for doing what they do, since it basically saved my gaming hobby from the trash heap.  If I had continued thinking I was alone in a sea of mainstream RPGs, I might have given up completely.  Thanks, all of you.

[TonyLB]

Welcome, welcome, Tony.  Heck of a way to make an entrance, and I mean that in the best way.

So you don't want to spend a lot of time on prep.  That is not a challenge ... I can list more games with sub-half-hour session prep than you'll likely have time to play this year.  Let's narrow it down further.  What do you find exciting and satisfying in play?  Can you sketch a few moments when things really clicked for you ... stories from your current group, if you have any.

The actual play and (to my mind, more important) the way you retell the actual play is a surprisingly good way to help us, and often you, see clearly what particular patterns you find most rewarding.  Of course, I just got done watching an episode of House, so I may just have differential diagnosis on the brain.

[Maitete]

What do you find exciting and satisfying in play?  Can you sketch a few moments when things really clicked for you ... stories from your current group, if you have any.

Thanks for the quick response.  As far as examples from play, I have one that might be illustrative:

Semi-long background:
I'm currently running a long-term Warhammer Fantasy game where the PCs are half-brothers.  Their father (recently revealed to not be one of the PCs father) was a simple ranch-hand for the local Baumeister, or so they thought.  Recently, famed Witch-Hunter Ludwig Weiss arrived on the scene to inform them that their simple father had actually been a famous Witch-Hunter himself, and so had all of their line for the last eight generations.  One brother was very happy, and wished to consider the career himself.  The other was currently apprenticed to a local hedge wizard, and was very fearful of being discovered and burned as a heretic.

The Sitch:
At one point Ludwig Weiss and the "heretic" PC were walking together, and Weiss asked to see his father's diaries.  Weiss is not a polite man, and generally demands rather than asks for things.  The PC became ruffled and told Weiss to show some respect to his mother and her household.  Weiss became very sinister and quiet and said (in effect) "It is my opinion that your mother is responsible for your father's retirement from Witch-hunting.  She seduced him from the path of righteousness.  Now, some people might consider that... heresy.  Perhaps if I were to have access to his diaries, there might be something in them that could clear her of that stigma.  It would be terrible to lose both parents this year, would it not?"

The Kick:
The player of that PC was actually visibly frightened by that little whisper in his ear, and it was directly due to the connection he'd made between his character and the relationship with the character's mother.  He was truly frightened for her, and the character quickly ponied up said diaries.

Okay, so that was a long way of saying, I really like character interaction, speaking in NPC voices and dramatic twists.  I love to invoke real emotion, as far as that's possible in a game session.  As far as game genres, backgrounds or whatever; I'm a game-whore.  I'll try anything from Amber to Zero.  I lean towards epic and cosmic, but I think that's only due to crunchy systems breaking down at the high end, so it's where I've been able to find whatever Narrativist nuggets I can prior to my discoveries above.  My group is currently very Gamist, thus I'm working on gathering a new group.

The systems listed in my original post all seem to be elegant, intelligent and creative approaches to the gaming experience, and I'm dying to play all of those.  I think I'm just greedy now that I've discovered such wonders, and hoping to build a tower of good gaming material in my living-room.  Sort of an "I am Narrativist, hear me roar!" kind of collection.  That and ease of prep.  So I'm only a little ambitious, right?

Does this help?

Thanks again,

Tony

PS - On a completely irrational, OCD note: I prefer to have a physical book in my hand, or something that's been produced and printed somehow.  The physicality of such a thing makes it more real than a free download (even when it's printed) in my mind for some reason.  I really don't know why.

[TonyLB]

Networks of relationships.  Check.

Threatening those relationships to provoke player investment.  Check.

Hovering menace and scary insights.  Check.

Okay, for games where the rules support and encourage that kind of scene, I would recommend taking a look at:  My Life with Master and The Mountain Witch.  The former is more perfectly slanted toward the barely-veiled menace you were having fun with.  The latter is more about how players have their characters build up their own networks of trust and honor, but has a lot of the same player reactions (just in reaction to input from more directions than just the GM).  They're both wicked cool.

Do other folks have other suggestions?

[Maitete]

Tony (sorta feels like I'm talking to myself),

That's a tiny bit scary, actually.  Part of the reason I've been reluctant to post on this forum is the "intimidation factor".  I mean, I'm a pretty smart guy, but the clarity of analysis and insight people bring to the Forge is a bit scary. 

The fact that you were able to dissect a long ramble about a single session experience and a) find touchstones that accurately portray my tastes and b) recommend games that, after looking into them briefly, seem to fit exactly those tastes is... mind-boggling.  I plan on obtaining both of those games immediately.  Thanks for the suggestions!  I shudder to think how much the next responses might cost me...

Tony

[droog]

I might be able to save you some money. If you really have both HeroQuest and Hero Wars on order, I would cancel the order for HW if you can. Those two are essentially the same game, with HQ being a kind of second edition of HW.

[Ron Edwards]

Maitete,

One thing I wasn't able to parse from your play-account was your actual usage of the Warhammer rules. How much of them do you actually utilize, on a regular basis? Do you find that whole sections are being ignored? How about sections or specific rules that you have interpreted in ways that don't seem to match the ways other groups use them, on the off-chance that you have made any comparisons?

I'm especially interested in the character improvement/change rules. Do you guys apply them as written? How much attention to that would you say is paid, during actual sessions of play?

And, how about the GMing advice section in the book? If you look it over now, are you actually doing what it says? Or something else entirely?

Best,
Ron

[Maitete]

One thing I wasn't able to parse from your play-account was your actual usage of the Warhammer rules. How much of them do you actually utilize, on a regular basis? Do you find that whole sections are being ignored? How about sections or specific rules that you have interpreted in ways that don't seem to match the ways other groups use them, on the off-chance that you have made any comparisons?

I'm especially interested in the character improvement/change rules. Do you guys apply them as written? How much attention to that would you say is paid, during actual sessions of play?

Actually, I've found that I ignore most of the rules in the systems we've used up to this point.  It's not that I don't like dice or rules in general (especially after having encountered HeroQuest, Dying Earth, and others that support my style of play), it's just that they seem to be more hassle than their worth for the Creative Agenda I look for in a game.  Specifically in Warhammer, I tend to try and simplify everything and make it as invisible as possible.  The career rules appealed to me because they made a connection between character stat advancement and some sort of narrative goals for the character.  Those players who have direction and ambition for their characters are much easier to work with than those that wait for me to drop a monster in the room with them and tell them to roll initiative.  Careers were an interesting metagame mechanic allowing a player to want something, say a skill or ability, and then maneuver their character into joining the career that has it by developing a character personality that would want such a career.

And, how about the GMing advice section in the book? If you look it over now, are you actually doing what it says? Or something else entirely?

With regard to GMing advice, I generally ignore those sections nowadays.  Most of the Gamist/Simulationist-based games I've played have a pretty similar method of "adventure preparation", and it's actually that struggle that brought me to the Forge and this post.  I don't have either the time or enthusiasm to stat out the 10-20 NPCs I like to use, nor develop encounters that conform to notions of balance, Challenge Rating or whatever.  As an example:

The PC who was interested in becoming a Witch-Hunter became infected with some Beastman blood, and didn't know what that would mean.  He was visiting the Temple of the Grand Theogonist (for those not familiar it's like the Vatican of Warhammer) and began having terrible nightmares of an 18 foot tall slavering demon that called him father.  One night he had a dream of being inside that demon, and smashing up the Temple interior and killing several acolytes and priests.  When he awoke, he found himself in his bed, sheets soaked in blood, and people were screaming.  Now, there are detailed possession rules in Warhammer, but I didn't look at them, nor did I care how they worked.  I just thought it would be interesting to see how someone would handle wanting to be a Witch-Hunter to follow family tradition, but with the sneaking suspicion that he was cursed and dangerous somehow (sort of like the Hulk in its darker moments).

On a personal and tangentially related note: currently, my gaming is in a huge transition period right now.  I love the concept of RPG as underground art, as spiritual exploration, and as fun hobby, all at the same time.  I read with fascination at threads such as Moose in the City, or Art Deco Melodrama where players create real emotion, real drama in a living room with their friends.  I want that, and I'm working on both games and players to achieve it.  By requesting additional recommendations, I'm attempting to ensure that all different genres and types of games are available to me to offer to players, and to give me as much insight into this process as I can get.  I've had glimpses of the above, specifically with some of my more recent experiences written about here, but I want MORE.

Thanks,
Tony

PS - As fanboy as it may be, it's quite a treat to be posting a reply to the inimitable Ron Edwards.  I just received your Sorcerer books in the mail today, and am tearing through them with enthusiasm.  I'm sure I'll get over the giddy schoolboy routine after a few posts here.

[Arturo G.]

Hi, Tony!
Your enthusiasm is contagious.

Actually, I've found that I ignore most of the rules in the systems we've used up to this point.  It's not that I don't like dice or rules in general (especially after having encountered HeroQuest, Dying Earth, and others that support my style of play), it's just that they seem to be more hassle than their worth for the Creative Agenda I look for in a game.  Specifically in Warhammer, I tend to try and simplify everything and make it as invisible as possible.

Please, Tony, could you clarify me:
Were you just ignoring big parts of the rules, or were you substituting that parts by another much simpler set of home-rules?
Were you shifting to a resolution system based more on the unspoken social-contract of the group, or were you looking desperately for rules to cover the holes left by the discarded ones?

Cheers,
Arturo

[Maitete]

Were you just ignoring big parts of the rules, or were you substituting that parts by another much simpler set of home-rules?
Were you shifting to a resolution system based more on the unspoken social-contract of the group, or were you looking desperately for rules to cover the holes left by the discarded ones?

In this case, like many others, I was content to just ignore the mechanics completely and make it up as I went along.  I am consistently concerned about railroading the players however, and this is the struggle I'm working on.  After having just read the Sorcerer books last night, I'm excited about Ron's particular implementation of the Relationship Map technique as a way to prepare for a session in a way that allows for some guidance during actual play, without predetermining player choices.  I've had extensive experience with railroading, and had assumed that was just the price to play as a player in order to facilitate a GM's time and effort put into prep.

To try to get a bit back on topic, I was hoping for a list of games people have played that allow for less prep time, including what I call "total improv" games like Universalis, or ones with rules mechanics that are so light as to be easy to remember without chart memorization of flipping, or so integrated with the actual meat of a character as to be intuitive (HeroQuest comes to mind).  Please just throw out names of systems that fit these criteria, anyone, and I'll dig into them to find out if they suit what I'm looking for.  I certainly don't mind discussing my play, but I don't want to stray too far off topic {quakes before Ron's sinister moderator posts}.

I find myself in a situation not unlike searching for cool music.  I don't know if I'll like it until I hear it, and I can either dig through thousands of CD's on Amazon or whatever and listen to each one, or ask people who have already explored this territory for their recommendations, and then use that to limit my search.  I can only describe my music tastes so much before I just have to grab a list of CD titles and listen to them.

Please don't take any of the above as discouraging my enthusiasm for play-discussion.  It's been a rough week for me, and I might just be coming off too harsh.  No malice intended, just want to stay on topic.

Thanks to everyone!

Tony

[Nathan P.]

Tony,

Not to toot my own horn, but Timestream certainly fits the criteria you've laid out. Character creation does the majority of the prep for you, and the mechanics are pretty simple, and mostly of the currency-spending type. Of course, it's a very specific genre ("cinematic" time travel), which may or may not do it for you. I've posted some actual play here and here. More info's in my sig.

Other games that I've played and can heartily recommend: Inspectres and Primetime Adventures. Both are very simple mechanically, and have a lot of distributed authority. I've never done any prep whatsoever for Inspectres, and it's never been a problem. It's not hard to sing the praises of Primetime Adventures, either. In terms of genre, Inspectres is light/comedic supernatural investigation (a la Ghostbusters), and PtA is all about making your own TV show.

I hope that helps.

[Supplanter]

To try to get a bit back on topic, I was hoping for a list of games people have played that allow for less prep time, including what I call "total improv" games like Universalis, or ones with rules mechanics that are so light as to be easy to remember without chart memorization of flipping, or so integrated with the actual meat of a character as to be intuitive (HeroQuest comes to mind).  Please just throw out names of systems that fit these criteria, anyone, and I'll dig into them to find out if they suit what I'm looking for.  I certainly don't mind discussing my play, but I don't want to stray too far off topic {quakes before Ron's sinister moderator posts}.

In my experience, once you no longer have to worry about how to get players from encounter to encounter, the biggest remaining effort in prep is writing up NPCs. I get the most GMing enjoyment from games where that's fast, easy and fun. The various freeform trait games where you can basically assign some scores to your notes on the character are perfect for this - Over the Edge is the classic example. (Risus works similarly.) Everway is nice because you can draw Virtue, Fault and Fate cards for anything from the Realm down to a character and take inspiration from it. To the NPCs themselves, four scores, four specialties and a couple of other things and you're done. Trollbabe is structured so you don't need to assign scores of any kind to NPCs since the resolution system is based on the Trollbabe's Number (with, IIRC, one or two possible modifiers).

I find that the more confident I am that I can produce a workable NPC on the fly, the less tempted I am to railroad.

Dogs in the Vineyard provides excellent prep tools for creating towns, and the online NPC generator makes NPC creation nearly as easy as Over the Edge. I used the online NPC generator for my New Year's Dogs session and I'm glad I did. Doing NPCs "by hand" per the book still beats prepping any number of other games, but the web tool cuts a lot of brute force dicing time.

Like I say, my bugbear is NPCs. Yours might be situation. Games with good PC "flags" help. Over the Edge has the Secret, and the traits themselves can work as flags. Dogs characters are positively festooned with pennons. The Shadow of Yesterday has its Keys and Secrets. Everway offers Restrictions, Limits and Virtues. The Domain is itself a flag. Flags give you an idea of the sort of thing the player would like to see in the game, which narrows down the possible situations you need to consider.

All of the above have very memorizable rules, so they fit that criterion of yours. Dogs' resolution system is intricate in implication but simple in execution, and the character sheet has what you need to remind yourself of printed right on it. Everway you already own so you've seen it. Trollbabe also comes with a good character sheet and a pullout flowchart that makes running conflicts a snap. Over the Edge is a simple "roll a (small) dice pool and compare" system with a "grub for bonus dice" subsystem.

Dogs is a fantasy western where you play, basically, paladins with revolvers. The PCs ride into town and clean it up - meaning, eradicate Sin as they think best. Then they ride into another town. The excitement is in how they decide to clean up the towns.

Trollbabe is swords and sorcery with a very Norse, Moocockian feel to it.

Over the Edge is a modern occult/conspiracy/twisted new-age game. Our campaign was like what you'd get if Elmore Leonard appeared in an HP Lovecraft tribute anthology, so it was probably a bit . . . cheerier than the run of OTE games. Think William Burroughs for classic OTE.

Everway as written is almost an archaic-fantasy mirror-image of Dogs in the Vineyard, in terms of Situation. Explaining how means using the shopworn phrase "politically correct," which I've been avoiding for years now.

Hope these help!

Best,


Jim

[Arturo G.]

Hi, again!

I certainly don't mind discussing my play, but I don't want to stray too far off topic {quakes before Ron's sinister moderator posts}.

Come on! This is the Actual Play forum. It is supposed we are going to discuss your play here. At least to try to identify what you really want or expect from a game. Your past experiences are highly valuable. I don't think Ron will be worry about this thread as far as it does not become a collection of posts with empty suggestions and no rationale.


I find up to three different themes in the discussion.
1. You clearly want to avoid railroading.
2. You want to reduce the preparation time for the GM. But, probably because you are associating the preparation time with the railroading experience, isn't it?
3. When some rules doesn't fit your needs and they become a burden you enjoy better playing without them, in a more free-form way.

You can avoid railroading with any game that exploit some player authorship. The typical techniques of Relationship-Maps, Kickers and Bangs may be exploited very easily (well, it takes some time to get used).

I would like to know what would be your reaction to the play-preparation in a game like Legends of Alyria. It is a collaborative experience, worth on its own. Not especially short, but it creates a relationship-map for the main characters (PCs and NPCs) in an organic form and it may produce enough stuff for Kickers and Bangs.

About the third question, I'm not sure if you would prefer something with a detailed resolution system like Dogs in the Vineyard, or a very simple one like The Pool.

For example:

The career rules appealed to me because they made a connection between character stat advancement and some sort of narrative goals for the character.  Those players who have direction and ambition for their characters are much easier to work with than those that wait for me to drop a monster in the room with them and tell them to roll initiative

Ok, there are many games that provide narrative goals for the character in different forms.
If you really liked the Warhammer career rules you probably will like the "characters burning" system of "The Burning Wheel". (Although I'm feeling you will enjoy more the part about beliefs and traits regarding how the player make statements about the priorities of her character in play). But there are less detailed systems which achieve similar results.

Jim and Nathan are offering sensefull suggestions.
Perhaps you should have a look at PtA. Very simple resolution, characters with clear issues to solve during the game, minimum effort.

Cheers,
Arturo

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Tony, the topic cannot be "give me a list." This needs to be a discussion about Actual Play, and your posts about that have been crucial to anyone's giving you useful help.

If anyone else wants to give Tony more recommendations in the form of a plain list, please do it by private message. This thread may continue if we focus on matching specific system recommendations (parts of games) to specific features of what Tony has posted about his play-experiences.

Therefore, Tony, the more you post about those, the stronger this thread will become.

Best,
Ron

[Storn]

I know this is not an indie game... and I hope this is specific to what you brought up.... but I really like Savage Worlds.  Prep time is a  joy.  Check out the PEG boards, especially this thread...http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8176  Which is about the world that a 10 year old daughter is creating with her dad using SW.  Its pretty wonderful stuff.

Many fathers are playing SW with their kids.  Many of the PEG board folk are married and 30 to 40 somethings... and they too have the prep time problems.

Why I bring it up is that its dice mechanic is really easy.  You kinda stated [paraphrasing] You don't hate dice, but you don't want to roll tons of them either.  SW is easy, your skills and stats are represented by a die, d4, d6 , d8, d10, d12, d12+x.  Wild cards (ie, PCs and named NPCs) get to roll an add'l d6, take the better result.  Got to beat a 4 for any skill check besides combat. 

Prepping for SW ranges for me from very easy to I don't do it at all.  I've run impromptu sessions several times with nothing prepped.  Bookkeeping during play is so easy I can often keep it in my head.

But I wouldn't call it rules light... it has some crunch and was designed to utilize minis.  I often don't use minis, but I have several players who paint and love minis... so I would say its about 60/40  don't use/use minis.

Its overall philosophy is cinematic combat, but due to exploding die rolls, death is always a possiblity no matter how tough you are.  Which jibes with my Sword and Sorcery jones perfectly... your mileage may vary.

Lastly, to Ron's #3 pt:  I personally find it easy to handwave a rule in SW to fit a story when needed.  More so that Hero or Gurps.  I use their Bennies (fate, luck, hero pts)  to not only be allow for re-rolls as per rules.... but for players to "Scene Edit" and take GM stance with a limited resource, the Benny.  That is my house rule.  You will not find it in the rules.  But THAT house rule right there negates SO many problems.... Player wants a cactus to cut into in a desert for water... spend a benny, he gets it.  No roll.  No NEED to handwave.

I am also very, very impressed with Burning Wheel.  So much so, that it has sparked debate in our own gaming group of trying to incorporate its Beliefs, Instincts and Traits both into Savage Worlds and Hero/ Champions.  And its lifepaths are very much inspired by Warhammer's lifepaths.  Burning Wheel has a very well thought out, but a bit complex version of the Fate/Hero/Luck/Benny pt.

But be warned, BW combat is intense, indepth and I found it to be a bit slow in practice.... fine for a small group.  It is also grim and gritty combat, whereas I lean towards cinematic.  But I think BW should be on every serious GM's bookshelf to glean and tweak the ideas and hear the very empowering tone for players.