[S&S] Managing Outsized Adversity

[Calithena]

This relates to the game I'm designing at

http://1.myfreebulletinboard.com/calithena-forum-12.html&sid=fb44d74ad26efba39c2651a46e4c5921

but has some more general application.

I'm designing a game where some key elements - adventure location, magical spells and items, and adversity - are managed by randomly drawn cards. I also have a 'level up' system with 20 levels, more or less.

So then how do you deal with the thing where you draw a Purple Worm for a 3rd level party, or your 4th level wizard draws a Fiery Cloud of Armageddon spell?

One option is to manage the deck so it tracks the characters. That's the easiest and 'right' from a game point of view. Problem is, I don't like it. I want the outsized stuff in there, on both sides.

One idea I had was that either side could take such cards by choice or draw a different one. If you take the outsized card, then the other side has 'veto rights' when you try to play it. With the purple worm if things get rough the players can just say 'we escape' and that's the end of it, no roll. The GM similarly can scotch outsized spells. So if you use the thing in a consensually appealing way it may still have a cool function in the adventure, but you've got no guarantees.

A second idea would be a sort of 'fumble factor' with such things, where there's a system generated chance for something to go wrong/serendipitously when dealing with outsized force or opposition.

A third is to give the opposing side an additional resource to compensate if one side has an outsized card. I don't know what the resource would be though - maybe it's just a hero point type thing? Or extra cards drawn on the other side? Just not sure.

All advice general and specific eagerly solicited.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Well, it seems like the best way to deal with it (and leave it in there) would be to have the situation self-compensate. Meaning, if you pull a Red Dragon, it's a baby red dragon. If you pull fire cloud, it does dice per level, etc.
  Another solution might be the conveniently placed tool to help with the encounter, you get purple worm, but you also get a horn of summoning that only works once, etc.
  Maybe that is the balance, one deck for both bonuses and encounters, you get purple worm and death cloud on the same card...

[Calithena]

Meaning, if you pull a Red Dragon, it's a baby red dragon. If you pull fire cloud, it does dice per level, etc.

I don't really want the cards to scale like this, though it's a reasonable idea.

Another solution might be the conveniently placed tool to help with the encounter, you get purple worm, but you also get a horn of summoning that only works once, etc.
  Maybe that is the balance, one deck for both bonuses and encounters, you get purple worm and death cloud on the same card...

Right, cool - that was my third solution. So if the PCs get the awesome spell the GM gets a bonus adversity card (two, three, whatever), if the GM gets the nasty monster the PCs get a bonus draw from the magic deck. That's a leader right now but I'm still mulling it over.

Thanks for the feedback!

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Well, maybe we are talking about different ideas. My thought was that the magic deck and adversary deck are the same. Meaning the players get Cloud of death and Tarasque on the same card.
  The problem with extra draws is it could escalate to the point where you had to draw half of each deck to find bonuses that match up:
Example:
Fred (the GM) draws Purple Worm, "Draw 3 cards guys, Purple Worm is way too powerful for you guys"
Daphne draws 3 spells, Magic Missile, Invis and Cloud of Apocolispe, "We drew the cloud, too strong for us, draw three Fred"
Fred draws 3, Orc, Goblin, Terasque, "Terasque is too tough for you guys, draw three"
etc, etc, etc...
  Maybe each card has a monster, treasure and a small table of plot twists which the GM can roll secretly to mix it up with each encounter?
Sample card:
Terasque Ambush!
Encounter a Terasque just as you discover a Disintegrate Scroll
1 - Terasque is not hungry and will only fight in defense
2 - Terasque is defending their nest and will not pursue fleeing characters
3 - Scroll is under Terasque's foot and players will need a thief to retreive it
4 - Terasque is hungry and will pursue all characters it detects
5 - Terasque is in heat and will aggresively defend it's territory
6 - Scroll is in the stomach of the Terasque
  Something like that maybe?

[contracycle]

I was always fond of the way Magic had Enchantments and the like that operated at the "world" level, such as it was.

Similarly, it might be possible to turn outsize events into setting level events, altering the type of impact they have on the game rather than altering the content of the card.  So if a purple work were generated at a point at which the PC's are totally unable to respond to the danger, then it can still be used as a setting element, changing the sleepy hamlet into the set of a monster movie which the PC's are compelled to flee.

This is harder to rationalise with the case of actual spells, but this might be solvable via metaphysics.  It depends on what the intent behind having spells as cards in the first place was, which is not clear to me.  The boardgame Elric has kinda spell cards, although mostly I felt they served a limiting purpose, as characters could only carry so many.

[Calithena]

Good points.

The point of having spells and magic items as a single deck of cards, separate from the adversity deck, is

(a) to enable input from all players - everyone at the table can design spells and magic items (the kind they want their character to have, stuff they think is cool, stuff they think enhances the setting, etc.) and add them to the deck.

(b) to remove the 'fiddling' associated with spell choice - you randomly draw your spells up to a number determined by level - while keeping the spells-as-resource paradigm.

(c) to increase the sense of mystery and wonder in magic - each magic card is going to be unique so you don't have the whole Cure Light Wounds x3, Fireball x2 type thing going on

There is a 'scaling' effect on spells - basically, a spell's scale/level depends on what level of political institution it could effect.

The possibility for magic and adversity cards to get 'connected' to locations is already there, but that's a good idea.

dindenver, your point about the chain of draws is one I thought of but also one that has to be dealt with if I go that way. One thing your post made me think of is this: maybe the new cards get drawn not when the card is drawn, but when it's used. That slows down the chain effect and also gives the player (GM or player) time to think: "is this a good point to let the other guy get..." That might be an effective route if I choose to go that way.

Thanks for both of your help again!

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Another way to go is to have all the cards equal. For instance, One card might have Death Cloud, the other might have 10xMagic Missile. And with Monsters, one Purple Worm or 20xOrcs. Finally, you can add followers to the PCs to balance them out against the encounters.
  Just a thought.

[Calithena]

So I was starting the third Dark Tower book today and had a different take on this, one that seems both simple and genre-appropriate. They kill this massive bear just by shooting a dish off its head. Likewise Bard and Smaug in the Hobbit. When you get an outsized monster, it just has a weakness, and if you find it (maybe, with perception or intelligence rolls, and the GM has to make sure to give a clue in the description so the player can just figure it out, or something like that), you can aim for it, and if you hit it, it's like an insta-kill. So it changes the tenor of fights: find the weakness and hit it fast or get ripped by the superior firepower. But, it also evens them out, pretty much, since one hit is now a kill.

I wonder if there's a similar way to approach overpowered spells? I like the idea of something like 'magic fumbles', geas or being thwarted in the bigger picture or demonic possession or losing your power for a while, or opening up that portal into the other world, the compensating factor (like the weakness compensates above), but I'm not sure quite how I'd approach it in a simple way. Any suggestions?