Contain / Banishment question

[Lisa Padol]

In last night's session, Niccolo failed to Banish a demon. Unknown to him, Andreas put the demon in a Contain. Okay, a snapshot Contain, which may not hold up when the demon tries to break it, but that's another story. Julian said that Niccolo would try a couple more times to Banish the demon, and would naturally fail, as the demon is in a Contain.

This morning, Josh asked whether one could do most of a full, proper Banish ritual when a demon was in a Contain, then release the demon from the Contain and finish the ritual. I don't see any reason one couldn't. This seems to fit with why Sorcerers work with Contains in the first place. Does that make sense?

-Lisa

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Lisa,

Yes, that's an intentional rules feature. If you look carefully, you can see that Contain interacts with most of the other rituals in interesting ways.

This example permits an illustration of roll-overs and conflict resolution, too.

The Niccolo character should have indeed rolled his Banish attempts, though. Although they wouldn't actually banish the thing, if he succeeded, the victories might be utilized in a following role ... for instance, he might try to figure out why this demon didn't disappear like it should. That would match his Lore against Andreas' Lore (it doesn't matter whether he knows about Andreas or not), and if the Banish had numerically succeeded, he could use those victories as bonus dice for this roll.

Best,
Ron

[Lisa Padol]

The Niccolo character should have indeed rolled his Banish attempts, though. Although they wouldn't actually banish the thing, if he succeeded, the victories might be utilized in a following role ... for instance, he might try to figure out why this demon didn't disappear like it should. That would match his Lore against Andreas' Lore (it doesn't matter whether he knows about Andreas or not), and if the Banish had numerically succeeded, he could use those victories as bonus dice for this roll.

Oh, Julian did roll. I didn't think of a Lore vs Lore roll, but the victories were sufficient that we agreed Niccolo knew that something was blocking the Banish attempt, rather than that he screwed up the ritual.

-Lisa

[Ron Edwards]

Excellent! I agree that he'd probably figure it out, given his successful roll. The Lore/Lore suggestion applies to a hypothetical situation of him attempting to dope out why not.

Also, you're comfortable with the interactions among Binding, Banishing, and demon death, right?

Best,
Ron

[Julian]

A question that came up right before this one:

Is the demon's presence supposed to be required for the banishment ritual?

(The question also applies for Punish.)

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

The general rule in Sorcerer is that anything that a character does to affect another character is based on basic perception and access. Joe can't punch Bob unless he can see him (or otherwise perceive him) and can reach him. A lot of the time, basic access is part of the stated action ("I run up and punch him!").

Now, dealing with the rituals or various demon abilities uses the same logic, but since these are wholly fictional, we have to use fictional devices. It is no good to talk about whether a sorcerer "can" Banish a demon if he can see it on the TV screen. Instead, take a look at what sorcery and demon-stuff means in your game. If I recall correctly, this is a literary, arcane kind of sorcery/demon game, right? Books, wax seals, awful half-forgotton languages, that sort of thing? All very think-y and based on weird knowledge.

In that case, what sort of perception and access are we talking about? The simplest is to treat a ritual like a physical attack - you have to be there, the demon has to be there, and it's basically a lot like throwing a rock at it. That works fine as a default concept. But now, the fictional-devices concept has to be applied too. If you wanted to Banish a demon, and your character busts his ass to research it and gets a great success on a roll ... why not have it be possible to Banish it simply by surrounding himself with every possible reference, and absorbing everything known about the demon into his mind?

I suggest letting the basic sorcery/demon look & feel modify the "throw a rock" default quite a bit, and very likely based on good ideas that people have during the course of play.

Best,
Ron

[Lisa Padol]

Excellent! I agree that he'd probably figure it out, given his successful roll. The Lore/Lore suggestion applies to a hypothetical situation of him attempting to dope out why not.

We can do that at the beginning of next session, if we want -- we broke fairly late, right after that roll.

Also, you're comfortable with the interactions among Binding, Banishing, and demon death, right?

Um, lesse:

A banished demon is still bound.
A demon whose master has died is still bound.
An unbound demon that gets killed just goes back to the demon plane, whatever that is.
A bound demon that gets killed is dead.

That what you mean?

-Lisa

[Ron Edwards]

Yup!