[LoL] Equipment?

[dindenver]

Hi!
  People have asked me, why do I have an equipement list? Unfortunately, that question was accompanied by a lot of other question that demanded more attention from me. So, now I am ready to address this question. But the question that comes to my mind is the opposite.
  Why not?
  I mean, it gives mercantile-type chars something to do. It can be realistic, and it can, if done corrrectly, be an example of the fantasy economy. I've only seen a few games that don't do equipment, and they didn;t do it well.
  So, if you were doing a sword and sorcery game, why avoid equipment, what do you do about that "stuff" and how does it work/look?
  Thanks in advance.

[stefoid]

yeah I agree with you.  surely part of the setting is to tell the players what technology they have available, and how much it costs.

i.e. in a bronzeage world, there are no crossbows.  but there are chariots.  however, a chariot is EXPENSIVE.  its like the equivilant of owning private jet or a yacht in  todays terms.

pcitures of equipment add to the players mental imagery of the world as well,

so go for it.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  I do want to keep this about the benefits of a system without gear lists. But I would like to point out that the Crossbow was invented around 200 BCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow#History
  Anyways, anyone have a good experience with a system without equipment list? How did characters get "stuff" and how did it work?

[stefoid]

Hi!
  I do want to keep this about the benefits of a system without gear lists. But I would like to point out that the Crossbow was invented around 200 BCE

iron age began in china circa 600bc ;)

[Callan S.]

Equipment entries are sort of like adventure hooks, as in, play can end up revolving around them. Take the crossbow thing here as an example - this is a thread about designing a game, but suddenly it's starting to revolve around just when the crossbow was invented.

In other words, they can put a thread off topic and a game off it's topic. Take chariots, for example. You might have just put them in there for completeness, but your really keen to have a game that has lots of fishing in it. But the players take a look at the chariot, go whoah and there goes any game play focus on fishing.

PS: I'm not actually against or for equipment lists in writing this. I'm just giving a run down of what they do, IMO, as a game effecting technique.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Of course you are right. But I am more interested in "fun" games that do not include equipment lists. It hasn;t happened to me so I am at a loss to imagine how it works, anyone got some clues for me?

[Michael]

Well, I've almost never seen a system that complete does away with equipment lists. I say almost because another designer on this forum is working on a really interesting freeform narrative game where all the characters are in a dreamland and there's really no specific equipment lists.

Other than that, the closest I've ever seen is Exalted. The only actual equipment list included basic weapons and armor. As for all the other fun material stuff, it was handled using wealth levels, which described the character's basic standard of living. Overall, I thought it was a great system with regards to taking some of the focus off of micromanaging an economy, while still keeping economics a factor in the game.

[Selene Tan]

Hi!
  Of course you are right. But I am more interested in "fun" games that do not include equipment lists. It hasn;t happened to me so I am at a loss to imagine how it works, anyone got some clues for me?

A large number of Forge-influenced games lack comprehensive equipment lists. (i.e. lists of all possible equipment in the game.) Some have suggested or example item lists, allowing players to make up other items (Dogs in the Vineyard, Donjon), while some games don't need or address items at all (My Life With Master, Breaking the Ice). Also, some games treat items the same way that abilities/special characteristics are treated (The Mountain Witch), so that there's less need for the lists.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  OK, that's what I thought. The way some people have phrased this question, I thought maybe there was a playstyle I was not aware of.
  Thanks for the feedback and please post here if someone has something more to add.

[GreatWolf]

I wrote about my lack of equipment list for Legends of Alyria at this link.  The summary is that equipment can be used simply as Color to provide character exposition without actually affecting the character's Effectiveness.

[Josh Roby]

Dave, here's a basic principle: you should only include something in your game if it affects game play in a desired fashion.

You outlined three things (among others left unsaid, perhaps):

I mean, it gives mercantile-type chars something to do. It can be realistic, and it can, if done corrrectly, be an example of the fantasy economy.

I'll address them out of order.  Firstly, you cite 'realism'.  If authenticity of this sort is important to your game design, then this may be a reason to include it.  (The counterargument being that a static list of stuff and prices is not realistic at root, but that can be sidestepped by including rules to customize or modify the list given the specific situation.)  Secondly, you cite an 'example of the fantasy economy'.  Again, if the economy of the fantasy world is important to the game design, this makes sense to include it, along with (one assumes) notes about where things are harvested, produced, sold, et cetera.  This also pretty much assumes a world setting bundled with the rules set -- which I think your project does, but it's a design assumption to be conscious of.  These two are most powerful together -- as in, "realistic authenticity is important to my game, especially as expressed in the constraints of the fantasy economy."  If you can truthfully say that about your game, then leaving out the equipment list is a mistake.

Lastly, and the weakest argument, I think, is 'giving mercantile-type characters something to do'.  If I wanted to play a merchant, why do I need a list of stuff to do merchanty things?  Why can't I just say, "Hey, I've got a wagonfulla silks and spices here, and I'm selling it to the local people." or the like?  One response is that you can't adjudicate the benefit of such a sale without the price list, but that's arguing to realism, again.  There's no reason why the list is essential to being a merchant; it's perhaps essential to judging the success of that endeavor, which is a slightly different thing.

One of my current projects, Full Light, Full Steam, has no equipment lists.  In fact it has no equipment at all, in mechanical terms.  You play British naval officers in ether-powered spaceships, and you tote around guns and gizmos and tools and explosives and all sorts of stuff in the fiction.  However, I didn't see any advantage to writing out a list of stuff for people to use, considering, hey, you're an officer, you have a standard-issue sidearm.  You're going to go board that ship, you want to pick up a rifle before you go, sure.  If you get into a firefight or something, you having a better gun than somebody else isn't as important as how your character acts, and what they bring to the table in addressing the challenge.  It's far more important in the game that I'm a Loose Cannon or a Absent Minded Genius or a Grizzled Veteran (stats called thematic batteries).  What gun my character is holding pales in comparison to who he is.  Now, FLFS is all about characterization, so equipment just isn't important -- in that game.  If you wanted to make a game that's all about cool gear, then an equipment list is important to such a game.  But for my game, equipment isn't important, so hence no equipment list.

That make any sense?  And did it even address your question for the thread?

[stefoid]

One of my current projects, Full Light, Full Steam, has no equipment lists.  In fact it has no equipment at all, in mechanical terms.  You play British naval officers in ether-powered spaceships, and you tote around guns and gizmos and tools and explosives and all sorts of stuff in the fiction.  However, I didn't see any advantage to writing out a list of stuff for people to use, considering, hey, you're an officer, you have a standard-issue sidearm.  You're going to go board that ship, you want to pick up a rifle before you go, sure.  If you get into a firefight or something, you having a better gun than somebody else isn't as important as how your character acts, and what they bring to the table in addressing the challenge.  It's far more important in the game that I'm a Loose Cannon or a Absent Minded Genius or a Grizzled Veteran (stats called thematic batteries).  What gun my character is holding pales in comparison to who he is.  Now, FLFS is all about characterization, so equipment just isn't important -- in that game.  If you wanted to make a game that's all about cool gear, then an equipment list is important to such a game.  But for my game, equipment isn't important, so hence no equipment list.

JBR, how do you the players even know what technology is available to their characters, if you dont list it.  Sounds like some sort of hi/lo-tech fantasy world you have there... are there any steam-powered maser rifles for instance?  How would I know?  Surely in a world with non-standard technology, its at the very least some really nice colour to know the technological capabilities of the world?

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Thanks for the insight Josh. So, if there is no equipment in your game, what happens in game if you switch from pistol to rifle? More damage, different skill, nothing because combat is not resolved like that or..?
  I think I'd like to know more about how it works, then I can judge the impact on play/design for myself. Not that I disagree or agree with your assesment. I just can't think about what it would work like to have no equipment list/rules. Exalted has a limited list and abstract economic system, MEGS has a buy the ability not the item system, and others do the basic use in game resources (money) to gain in game objects' (eqipment).
  I don't think any game can include every item imaginable, and certainly I don't claim that mine does. But I wonder what a game would look like without any equipment listing?
  Thanks for taking the time to reply and anyone else can jump in with their experience/suggestions if they have any.

[Josh Roby]

Stefoid --

The first half of the book is all Setting junk, presented in-character and as entertainingly as I'm capable.  It talks about how the etherships work, what makes a snap cannon hit its target, what parts go into an analytical engine, et cetera.  In terms of what is available and how it works in the setting, I'd go so far as to say that I've provided more information than your usual gamebook-with-list does.  So that sort of thing is covered, it's just covered in a slightly different way.

As for steam-powered maser rifles, the answer is: sure, if that sounds cool to you, and the other players agree.  The thing of it is, you've got a big steam-powered maser rifle, the NPC has a plain old gunpowder firearm, deciding the fight still comes down to who you are rather than what you've got in hand.  Also, I can totally see a character with a signature supercool gun as a thematic battery -- Jayne's gun Vera from Firefly immediately springs to mind -- which would even allow you to get mechanical bonuses (and penalties) when using it.  Because in that case, Vera is part of who Jayne is.

There is a little more leeway on what is and isn't in the world than a static setting where there is a hard-and-fast answer.  The players need to have the ability to fiat such things into existence in order to express their characters.  Part of the game is making up Giant Cool Shit -- in fact I can't really see it without that element.  It'd be like StarTrek without technobabble, or Farscape without some crazy new alien every episode or two.

Dave --

Your last is correct; switching from rifle to pistol does not change anything, unless you happen to have a thematic battery like "Pistol-poppin madman" or something.

As for what a game is like without equipment lists and rules -- consider how the game is set up.  In D&D or similar, a lot of characters are defined by their equipment -- the mace-weilding priest, the axe-chucking barbarian, even the SMG-toting street samurai.  On the other hand, consider the inspirational materials for FLFS, stuff like Horatio Hornblower or Star Trek -- characters have stuff based on what they're doing at the time and the present circumstances, no more.  Characterization is developed through other means.  In Actual Play, I think you'd be surprised by how little difference there actually is.

If you'd like to see the manuscript, I am in playtest; I'll PM you the information.

[ffilz]

Dogs in the Vinyard is another great example of a game that has room for equipment, but does it without an equipment list.

Bringing this back to your game, how do you envision equipment being importan in your game? What does it do?

Frank