[Bronze] magic and 'magic items'

[lumpley]

Hey Steve.

I think you're doing fine. We want to help, we want you to realize your vision and we want to play your game. We're trying to find out what your vision is - not because we don't believe you have one, just because we can't see it yet. It's in your head, not ours.

Also, remember that my goal here is to help you figure out how you want your magic rules to work, specifically. My questions are leading to that, don't get distracted.

so what is it?  age of recovery?  age of expansion?  age of political consolidation (there are a lot factions)?, or just sheep herding barbarians having shenanigans  amongst themselves, which was the subject of my first scenario I playtested?

These are good answers.

Okay, so what you have here is:

a) The PCs rebuild civilization, expand civilization, consolidate political power (around them-personal-selves, presumably), and jockey for power and resources (that's how I read your "shenanigans," please correct me if I'm wrong), all in a mish-mash.

b) Magic is a tool they use to help them accomplish these things.

Sound right?

So now confirm for me the kinds of things that'll oppose them in their endeavors. I'm just brainstorming based on my sense of what you're going for:
-rival factions
-sorcerers
-corrupt city officials
-the entrenched despotic ruling castes
-barbarian tribes
-undead warriors
-corrupt priests
-tyrants and warlords

That kind of thing, yes?

Confirm that I'm on the right track and then I'll ask my next question.

-Vincent

[stefoid]

You say above:

I thought I did.   the answer is it depends on the scenario.

So lets approach it like this: what kind of scenarios are suitable in your world?  What kind of scenarios would you expect, or prefer, GM's to construct?  What kind of scenarios would allow the players to get the most out of your world?  To see the interesting and unique things that make this setting special?

For example, Legend of the Five Rings, while being fairly conventional in most respects, has as a suggested mode of play "the magistrate game", in which the PC's are Imperial Magistrates.  As such, they have reasons to go to interesting places, deal with important plots, and interact with powerful people, all of which provides good opportunities for the Exploration of the pseudo-Japanese setting.  It even remarks upon the fact that the setting does have wandering, violent opportunists like the conventional adventuring party, but that here they are referred to as "bandits" and hunted down and killed.  Further, the assumption is that all characters will be Samurai, and as such necessarily deal with issues of honour and face - rather like the game example given above of "the calamities of war", it is presumed that such issues of honour and face are unavoidable and a necessary part of "the PC condition".

In so doing L5R provides quite a lot of direction for how to build scenarios at the table.  It is not just a description of the world dropped in front of the players.  It provides information on what kind of people make good PC's, and what kind of activities those PC's are likely to engage in - court intrigue, duelling, investigation, etc. - and what kind of issues make good plots.

I hope that helps illustrate the question of "what do the players do".  Even if you don't adopt the magistrate game in L5R, simply knowing the PC's are going to be Samurai helps everyone understand where game play is likely to go, how to select suitable characters and skills, etc.

L5R has a more narrow focus than Bronze.   I dont want to say 'players are encouraged to play XXX types'  I am going to a lot of trouble to produce 8 or 9 very detailed cultures in this setting, so why would I encourage the players to select characters from only one of them?  As I said before, some are barbarian cultures, some are civilized cultures, they vary widely, so a neat statement like players should play this type of character or characters should pursue this type of goal is neither my aim, nor is it logical for this setting.

I think you guys will have to come to terms with the fact that I understand what you are talking about, and that my answer as to what the game is about isnt going to fit into  your square hole.

[stefoid]

Hey Steve.

I think you're doing fine. We want to help, we want you to realize your vision and we want to play your game. We're trying to find out what your vision is - not because we don't believe you have one, just because we can't see it yet. It's in your head, not ours.

Also, remember that my goal here is to help you figure out how you want your magic rules to work, specifically. My questions are leading to that, don't get distracted.

so what is it?  age of recovery?  age of expansion?  age of political consolidation (there are a lot factions)?, or just sheep herding barbarians having shenanigans  amongst themselves, which was the subject of my first scenario I playtested?

These are good answers.

Okay, so what you have here is:

a) The PCs rebuild civilization, expand civilization, consolidate political power (around them-personal-selves, presumably), and jockey for power and resources (that's how I read your "shenanigans," please correct me if I'm wrong), all in a mish-mash.

b) Magic is a tool they use to help them accomplish these things.

Sound right?

So now confirm for me the kinds of things that'll oppose them in their endeavors. I'm just brainstorming based on my sense of what you're going for:
-rival factions
-sorcerers
-corrupt city officials
-the entrenched despotic ruling castes
-barbarian tribes
-undead warriors
-corrupt priests
-tyrants and warlords

That kind of thing, yes?

Confirm that I'm on the right track and then I'll ask my next question.

-Vincent

Youre on the right track.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Steve, you have to either model every single interaction you could possibly have, or you have to model the parts of conflict that you care about. How does magic work in the kind of conflict you want to have?

I'd like it if you could give us an example. A real-life example would be best, but a hypothetical one would be good, too. Give a couple of examples, if you want to show different kinds of conflict.

[stefoid]

Joshua, Ill get onto that soon.

In the meantime, if anyone is interested in a 'potted' history of the setting, I have put it here:

www.geocities.com/stevenmathers/SETTING.zip

This isnt how it will be presented to the players.  This is just me writing to myself.  The players will read about the different cultures and have to assimilate a world view from what each culture thinks about the world.

[stefoid]

Steve, you have to either model every single interaction you could possibly have, or you have to model the parts of conflict that you care about. How does magic work in the kind of conflict you want to have?

I'd like it if you could give us an example. A real-life example would be best, but a hypothetical one would be good, too. Give a couple of examples, if you want to show different kinds of conflict.

on shamanism...

the deer spirit would be the spirit of a departed deer, not a live one.  Im not getting into spirit severing and that kind of stuff.

My shamanism is all about the relationship between the shaman and various spirits.  He doesnt have spells as such, he has realtionship with this deer spirit and that bison spirit.  He has known this deer spirit for many years so his relationship is quite strong.  The bison spirit he only recently contacted so the relationship is quite weak.  If he asks the bison spirit to do stuff, chance are it might ignore him, whereas the deer spirit is quite reliable and will generally do whatever he tells it to do. 

As for 'spells' all he can do is a) communicate with the spirit and b) tell it to 'go into' a particualr target.  thats it.   The effect of 'going into' the target will be that the target takes on some of the aspects of the spirit.  In the case of a deer, it will become more 'deery': speed, stamina, maybe a heightened sense of smell, leaping.  In that case it makes sense that the target is himself or someone firendly to him.

If the target is a rock, then sure, the rock becomes more deery.  It is now 25% faster and can jump 25% higher than it used to , which is to say not at all, so I cant see that being a big advantage for the shaman :)

The power of the effect that the spirit has when it inhabits the target is dependent largely on the power of the spirit.  spirits are varying in power just as creature are when alive.  the more powerful the spirit, the better the effect.  Being inhabited by a powerful aniceint wise deer spirit will enable you to run much faster and leap much higher than if it was some generic recently dead less powerful deer spirit.

As for 'fetches' and so on, Im not going to get into binding and that sort of thing.  As far as it goes, a fetch or shamanistic magical item is merely a communication device the shaman has constructed that enables him to contact a particular spirit.  its a spirit telephone.  That saves him the trouble of entering the spirit world and searching for the spirit he has a good relationship with every time he needs it.  'hello Deer?  yeah its me again, listen I need you to inhabit the body of a warrior buddy of mine for the duration of a raid this afternoon?  whadaya mean your busy?  maaate, after all we've been through...  yeah , OK, thats the last time I ll call on you this week, I promise.  yep, see you at 2.. bye"  but dressed up in a ceremony to impress the yokels.

[stefoid]

on theistic magic

the worshipper, whether preist or acolyte or just plain believer has a relationship with their chosen deity.  Their title doesnt neccessarilly reflect the strength of that relationship, but often does.  By relationship, i dont mean that the worshipper and the deity communicate on an everyday level, but rather it represents the strength of the connection btween the man and the god.  The man can call on the god and can feel the god to be close to him when this is successful.  his god is 'with' him.

this process can be initiated by a number of means - some means are more effective than others - certain rituals, ceremonies, and simply more numbers of worshippers all doing it at once is more effective.  This is the real difference between a preist and an ignorant believer, even if they both have a strong relationship with their deity - the priest has the knowledge required to perform the rituals and the mundane clout to gather the many worshippers and lead them in worship, so his results are generally going to be more impressive, than the single devout believer in personal prayer.

Another factor which figures in the effectiveness of any theistic magic is the fact that the deity might be more or less present in a certain time or place of its own accord, and efforts to work divine magic are going to be more or less effective accordingly.  example is calling on the god of the winds during a still day comapred to during a hurricane.  certain times and places will be sacred to certain deities.  again, the religious heirarcy are going to have this knowledge which may or may not be public information, depending on the nature of the deity - secret cults and so on are secret, after all.

Having drawn on their conenction with their deity, the worshipper may then ask for magic to be worked on their behalf.  The god cannot do just anything - it can only affect that which is under its domain.  a god of wind can only do 'windy' type things.  Certain powerful gods may have more than one aspect - that is, more than one domain that they can work in.  The god must be closer or 'more present' to do more powerful miracles.  This will have side effects other than the intended miracle.  For instance if a preist calls on the god of the winds to carry his words to far away destnation, then a wind will arise from nowhere, a side efect of the deities presence.  the more powerful the effect, the more powerful the side effect.

Lastly, ceremonies and ritual can be used to bless an item to make it sacred to the deity.  This is not really any different in concept to asking the deity to perform any other kind of miracle.  just as aspects of the deity are more or less present in the world at large, (depending on its own domain of influence), they are specifically very much present in a blessed item.  the item then takes on certain specified properties that are within the deities domain of influence.  one of these properties might simply be to assist in worship/communication with the god itself, to make the process easier -- A sacred space can be made, (blessing a temple or alter), or religious symbol .   But other effects could be made inherent in the item as well.  A sword made sacred to the god of death would be particularly lethal, for instance.  a cup blessed by the god of wine and song might bestow hallucinegenic properties on any wine poured from it.  such effects are 'always on' .  the magical effect is inherent in the item.  No effect that has to be initiated can be 'stored' in a sacred item.  A sacred item is fairly useless to a non-believer because he has no relationship with the deity to draw apon.

The scale of thesitic magic can vary from the minor to the very very powerful, in direct correspondance to the effort and success of the worship that goes into it.  An example of the minor might be a quickly mumbled prayer and request for aid or luck before performing a task - this is modelled by 'tapping a favour point'  in order to get a 1L bonus on a roll, or to bump up a failed roll.  At the other end of the scale is massive ritual conducted by many worshippers during at a sacred time at a sacred place.  Such a thing could be expected to help crops grow well all year, or prevent a volcano from errupting, etc...

[lumpley]

Hey Steve.

I'm going to continue with the questions, okay?

Here's a name for my next question: arenas of conflict.

Here on this side of the line are the PCs, trying to expand civilization (in this for-example case). Here on the other side of the line is a barbarian clan, trying to keep 'em from expanding.

Is the line political, like the PCs are trying to win an alliance from the clan matriarch? Is it mercantile, like the PCs are trying to enforce trade tariffs on the clan? Is it war (small-scale, in this case, but you can imagine whole massed armies in other cases)? Is it sexual, like the PCs are trying to father their blood into the clan? Is it cultural, like the PCs are trying to teach the clan to read and write? Is it religious, like the PCs are trying to convert the clan away from their heathen superstitions?

Might it be any of those, or are there some you don't care about?

Answer that, and then...

Whatever arenas of conflict you're going to have in your game, both the PCs and the NPCs need to have resources that make them competitive in those arenas. For some arenas, but not most, things like body strength and how fast you can run and how skilled a harper you - the stuff you usually find on a character sheet - will matter. For other arenas, you'll need to put a whole different kind of stuff on the character sheets: who the character's related to by blood, how many men the character can call upon, what reputation preceeds the character, things like that.

For each arena of conflict you're going to support in your game, what resources might the PCs have that make them competitive? Just brainstorm me three or four for each arena you choose.

After that, THEN we can talk about magic.

-Vincent

[stefoid]

Hi Lumpley, in case you werent aware of it, this thread is about the general rules.   As you can see, I spent a lot of time discussing the 'aboutness' of the game.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18496.0

but you can see Ive modelled other things besides magic and favour in the basic rules.  there is stuff on stats, skills, personalities, persuasion, favour and combat.  granted it needs simplfying and ironing out in a few places.

but as to your question: two things.  1st is that it kind of depends on which barbarian culture we are talking about.  I really like the idea of the civilized inhabitants seeing themselves as a haven of relative saftey amidst a world of dangerous unknowns.  This is kind of ancient greek in that respect... the greeks considered themselves as the only civilized people, and all the rest are barbarians who are no doubt stupid, dangerous and do horrible things like eat each other and sacrifice their children to terrible gods.  However this is tempered somewhat by the exact barbarian culture we are talking about.  Some are more familliar and hence less demonized to the civilized folk than others.

2nd is that I think all of your scenarios have merit.  My question to you is why would I the designer of the game want to encourage the players to choose one type of scenario predominantly over the other?

[lumpley]

Nah, the other thread's a mess.

My question to you is why would I the designer of the game want to encourage the players to choose one type of scenario predominantly over the other?

Why would you? You would if it better served your vision to do so. If it didn't, you wouldn't. I don't have any kind of "choose one! CHOOSE!" agenda.

Choose 'em all then. Brainstorm me some resources.

If you're going "dude, Vincent, wade through the other thread, you'll see it's all there already" - then cool. Then my next question:

In your game, is magic a resource or an arena of conflict?

-Vincent

[Josh Roby]

My question to you is why would I the designer of the game want to encourage the players to choose one type of scenario predominantly over the other?

It's not to me, but I'll answer all socratic-like, anyway: do you plan to support every conceivable arena of conflict with a single gamebook?

[stefoid]

My question to you is why would I the designer of the game want to encourage the players to choose one type of scenario predominantly over the other?

Why would you? You would if it better served your vision to do so. If it didn't, you wouldn't. I don't have any kind of "choose one! CHOOSE!" agenda.

great, because thats the vibe Ive been getting from most, whether intentional or not.

Choose 'em all then. Brainstorm me some resources.

If you're going "dude, Vincent, wade through the other thread, you'll see it's all there already" - then cool. Then my next question:

the potted summary is I have a game with 7 stats and any number of skills that are mostly associated with those stats.  pretty standard fare, really.  The stat caps the associated skill such that the skill cant be three or more levels higher than the stat.  So a weedy guy isnt going to be an unarmed combat monster or the vague guy with crappy concentration isnt going to make an arch-sorceror.

As for resources if I understand how you use the term, you got favour points, mental points and body points that get run down when you do certain things- if you call on a spirit or god or you want to bump a dud roll, or you execute a signature move in combat, you tap your favour points, if you do some funky sorcery or drink a bottle of whiskey you tap your mental points and if you get damaged or real tired you tap your body points.

In your game, is magic a resource or an arena of conflict?

-Vincent

erg.  a resource to some types of characters who can use it.  not sure what you mean by the latter.  like, can you have a wizard war?  are you asking me if I need rules to cover magic users going at each other?  or do you simply mean if I envisage scenarios where the players are primarilly magic users and so the scenario will be based on a lot of magic-related stuff?  yeah I do.  Im sure anyone who liked playng in bronze world would eventually get around to playing a scenario where they were the sorcerors in hiding so that they could work out some stuff about what the sorcerors thought went down and what it was like to be a sorceror now and what their current aims might be.

see the thing about sorcery being seen as the same as divine magic doesnt do it for me.. I like the above ideas too much to let it go.  I think its just a case of working out a neato way for sorcery to work before I even worry about sorcery related rules.

[lumpley]

the potted summary is I have a game with 7 stats and any number of skills that are mostly associated with those stats. pretty standard fare, really. The stat caps the associated skill such that the skill cant be three or more levels higher than the stat. So a weedy guy isnt going to be an unarmed combat monster or the vague guy with crappy concentration isnt going to make an arch-sorceror.

As for resources if I understand how you use the term, you got favour points, mental points and body points that get run down when you do certain things- if you call on a spirit or god or you want to bump a dud roll, or you execute a signature move in combat, you tap your favour points, if you do some funky sorcery or drink a bottle of whiskey you tap your mental points and if you get damaged or real tired you tap your body points.

Cool, let's back up, talk about resouces.

You can think of the stuff on the character sheet as tools the PCs can bring to bear on problems. For instance, a problem: the barbarian queen has her men tie the PC to a tree and leave him for the wolves. What resources can the PC bring to bear, what tools can he use? A bodily strength stat, a hidden knife, a contortions skill, an alliance with the field mice, a friend hiding nearby, the fact that the queen's secretly in love with him, the fact that the queen's son is secretly in love with him, kinship with wolves - see how each of those might be useful to have?

So a problem in the political arena: the PCs are trying to negotiate a political alliance, but the barbarian queen thinks (rightly) that the alliance will undermine her authority. What resources can the PCs bring to bear on the problem, what tools might they have at their disposal? This is all bluffing, got-you-over-a-barrel, appealing to honor, rhetoric, idealism vs. pragmatism, flattery, "you and I, we're men of the world," back-room deals, shows of force, genuine compromise, keeping and breaking promises kind of stuff, wicked cool stuff. What resources might the PCs have to back up that kind of action?

I'll brainstorm a few: their blood ties to the queen, the hostage they're holding, their leader's commanding presence, the army encamped nearby. Now you add a few things to my list.

Next a problem in the sexual arena: the PCs (all men) are trying to fuck lots and lots of women in the barbarian tribe, so that 9 months from now they'll have blood-sway over the tribe, but the barbarian queen (naturally) doesn't want them to. What resources can they bring to bear? Their stealth, their good looks, their willingness to commit rape, what? List me a few.

And so on. Pose a problem in the mercantile arena, the cultural arena, the war arena, the religious arena - what tools do the PCs have at hand? What makes them competitive in that arena when they go up against the wealth, tradition, army, and shamanistic power of the barbarian queen?

List some things for me, just off the top of your head, I don't care if they're stats, skills or what. Then we can talk about magic, which is what we really want to do here!

-Vincent

[stefoid]

OK, Ill play along, but surely a lot of the resources you are have given as examples are situational, rather than something that a game designer can address.  So im not sure where youre going with this.

Cool, let's back up, talk about resouces.

You can think of the stuff on the character sheet as tools the PCs can bring to bear on problems. For instance, a problem: the barbarian queen has her men tie the PC to a tree and leave him for the wolves. What resources can the PC bring to bear, what tools can he use? A bodily strength stat, a hidden knife, a contortions skill, an alliance with the field mice, a friend hiding nearby, the fact that the queen's secretly in love with him, the fact that the queen's son is secretly in love with him, kinship with wolves - see how each of those might be useful to have?

'

OK, so in this scenario, non-situational resources might be:  A high favour stat (you know this guy has the sparkle in the eye and the glint from the teeth).  so he calls for help in the hope that he is lucky enough to have someone passing by...  if he is a certain kind of spirit-worshipping barbarian, he could use the sleep derprivation and pain of the ordeal to try to draw the attention of a spirit to help him.  If he has a good relationship with a deity whoose domain of influence is helpful, he could attempt to work some theistic magic - lets say a freak storm uproots the tree or lightning blows it apart. 

So a problem in the political arena: the PCs are trying to negotiate a political alliance, but the barbarian queen thinks (rightly) that the alliance will undermine her authority. What resources can the PCs bring to bear on the problem, what tools might they have at their disposal? This is all bluffing, got-you-over-a-barrel, appealing to honor, rhetoric, idealism vs. pragmatism, flattery, "you and I, we're men of the world," back-room deals, shows of force, genuine compromise, keeping and breaking promises kind of stuff, wicked cool stuff. What resources might the PCs have to back up that kind of action?

I'll brainstorm a few: their blood ties to the queen, the hostage they're holding, their leader's commanding presence, the army encamped nearby. Now you add a few things to my list.

There are various persusion skills - there is bullshit, seduction, act and charm which are all perception-based and leadership, intimidate & oratory which are will-based (strength of conviction)

personality traits also come into persuasion, depending on the nature of the 'pitch'.  i.e.  careful,  emotional, egotistical, predjudiced, compasionate, honourable, moral and their opposite counterparts.  the preception-based skill of awareness is also something that should come into play.

Next a problem in the sexual arena: the PCs (all men) are trying to fuck lots and lots of women in the barbarian tribe, so that 9 months from now they'll have blood-sway over the tribe, but the barbarian queen (naturally) doesn't want them to. What resources can they bring to bear? Their stealth, their good looks, their willingness to commit rape, what? List me a few.

And so on. Pose a problem in the mercantile arena, the cultural arena, the war arena, the religious arena - what tools do the PCs have at hand? What makes them competitive in that arena when they go up against the wealth, tradition, army, and shamanistic power of the barbarian queen?

persuasion and personality traits surely must permeate almost any scenario.  combat and magic might be appropriate only in some scenarios.  Is that what youre getting at?

List some things for me, just off the top of your head, I don't care if they're stats, skills or what. Then we can talk about magic, which is what we really want to do here!

done

[stefoid]

oh, I should add that vaious talents/flaws (another standard concept) use up or give extra creation points.  Stuff that comes under this category is just about anything relating to the character that the GM or player wants, such as good and bad relationships with individuals or groups, wealth, reputations, being indebted or having favurs to call on...anything.