Combatr combat combat

[Peter Nordstrand]

Hi there,

I'm going to put up a couple of combat examples here to discuss or study.

I'm having a devil of a time figuring rollover bonuses. That is, okay, Sophia has Stamina and Cover: Swordswoman, so one should roll successes into the other, which I think means rolling one vs the other for those successes. Except that it felt so dang'ed fiddly and pulled us right out of Story Now and cinematic combat.

Hm, we need a sample character.

Sven the Sorcerorrr

Stamina 4 (Military training), Will 3 (Rageful and vengeful), Lore 3 (Coven Member), Cover 4 (Soldier of Fortune)
[/list]

Example 1

This is how I would do it. I suggest that you actually put real dice on the table in front of you while reading this.

Sven fights Rick.

1. State intended actions

Sven: I punch Rick in the face.
Rick: I headbutt Sven.

(I would actually penalize my players for boring action statements like these, but nevermind that here.)

2. Determine relevant scores

Rick's relevant score is Stamina 5.
Sven has two relevant scores; Stamina 4 and Cover 4.

3. Roll the dice.

Rick rolls his Stamina 4, 2, 2, 1, 1.

Sven rolls his Stamina 7, 5, 5, 2.

This gives Sven three victories.

Now Sven rolls his "real" roll. The rule of currency states that 1 victory = 1 dice, so he gets +3 dice. Now remove Sven's Stamina roll from the table. (Don't touch Rick's roll! His dice are still there on the table.)

Sven now rolls his Cover+3 getting 10, 6, 5, 5, 3, 2, 1. This is Sven's "real" roll.

4. Resolve all actions in order.

Look at the dice on the table. Compare Rick's roll with Sven's real roll. Best roll goes first, so Sven goes first. His statement of intent was to punch Rick in the face ... etc.

Questions?



Best,

/Peter

[Julian]

From what I recall in the rulebook, you're not supposed to get rollover bonuses unless you actively do something to bring a second stat into play. (I seem to recall an example involving somebody doing an athletic feat (leaping over something) to get more momentum on their attack.)

Also, the method you describe is very all-or-nothing. If the guy with only one stat rolls well, I get no bonus dice, and likely don't get much on my actual attack. If he rolls poorly, I squash him like a bug.

And how do you handle situations where both participants have multiple applicable stats?

[Peter Nordstrand]

Hi Julian,

Yes and no.

The example above is specifically about the Multiple descriptors rule from Sorcerer's Sword, page 70. This is the only instance when a character gets to make two rolls as a single action. Under any other circumstance getting a roll-over bonus requires two actions, meaning that they cannot be performed in the same round. I intend to cover this in a later post. I just want to take one thing at a time, giving Lisa a chance to comment.

Lisa, you were talking about the rule from Sorcerer's Sword in the quote above, weren't you?

And how do you handle situations where both participants have multiple applicable stats?

I haven't thought about that. I would probably have the character's compare their first rolls against each other. The winner gets bonus dice. Then both make their "real" rolls. Ron?

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Actually, my text on p. 70 is referring to a far simpler notion. Looking it over, I can see where you get to what you're describing above, but I gotta say, it's very complex compared to what I had in mind and attempted to describe.

1. State intended actions

Sven: I punch Rick in the face.
Rick: I headbutt Sven.

(I would actually penalize my players for boring action statements like these, but nevermind that here.)

2. Determine relevant scores

Rick's relevant score is Stamina 5.
Sven has two relevant scores; Stamina 4 and Cover 4.

Here's where I'll pick it up. We start merely with Sven, on his lonesome, with his Cover 4.

He rolls 4 dice against any opposing dice the GM sees fit. I typically grab three. If there were some notably difficult situation relative to that Cover, yet somehow it still applied, then I'd grab more.

I'll keep your numbers: Sven rolls his Cover 7, 5, 5, 2, and the GM (me) rolls, oh, 6, 4, 1. Sven has succeeded against my roll with one victory.

Fine. Now we can actually get the real rolls going as normal.

Important: see how that works? The first roll (Cover) is basically a little prequel or setup for the real one (Stamina). The other guy isn't involved with this first roll, and you don't compare the offensive rolls directly to one another. Your method, Peter, creates a numerical double-dip, such that one roll essentially gets two successful effects and bootstraps itself for the second effect.

3. Roll the dice.

Sven rolls his Stamina, with an extra die for the Cover victory, at five dice total: 6, 6, 3, 1, 1.

Rick rolls his Stamina 4, 2, 2, 1, 1.

Some of you are saying Sven wins by two!! He has not. All we know at the moment is that his punch is coming in first. Rick now can decide whether he wants to abort his head-butt and use five dice to defend against the punch (and the round would be over), or whether he wants to use one die to defend and keep his admittedly low-grade head-butt. If he does the latter, then Sven will of course have his four dice to defend. (This is assuming Rick's defense is successful; if it's not, then the dice values I'm describing will be modified by damage.)

Questions?

[Judd]

3. Roll the dice.

Sven rolls his Stamina, with an extra die for the Cover victory, at five dice total: 6, 6, 3, 1, 1.

Rick rolls his Stamina 4, 2, 2, 1, 1.

Some of you are saying Sven wins by two!! He has not. All we know at the moment is that his punch is coming in first. Rick now can decide whether he wants to abort his head-butt and use five dice to defend against the punch (and the round would be over), or whether he wants to use one die to defend and keep his admittedly low-grade head-butt. If he does the latter, then Sven will of course have his four dice to defend. (This is assuming Rick's defense is successful; if it's not, then the dice values I'm describing will be modified by damage.)

Questions?

That's great.  Thanks for asking about this, Peter.  It has cleared some things up that were still blurry to me.  Great.

[Valamir]

This may be more of a 6 of one, half dozen of the other question, but philosophically, lets say Sven's player described some action that made particularly effective use of his being a soldier of fortune.

Would you be inclined to:

1) Stick to the standard GM grab of 3 dice and award Sven some bonus dice.
2) Reduce the number of GM dice on the grounds that the use of cover was "easier"
3) Some combination where you adjust the GM dice based on how appropriate the use of the Cover was (less if spot on, more if a stretch) while awarding Bonus Dice as usual.

[ubergeek2012]

(This is assuming Rick's defense is successful; if it's not, then the dice values I'm describing will be modified by damage.)

Questions?

I have one.  How would the values be modified?  If wounds = die penalties, how would you affect the already rolled headbutt?  In this case Rick already rolled 4 dice for his attack.  If Sven goes first and gives him 2 dice of penalties would Rick have to re-roll with 2 dice, or would the dice he already rolled still stand?

[Peter Nordstrand]

Cool. Thank you for clarifying things, Ron. 

[Peter Nordstrand]

Hi,

How would the values be modified?  If wounds = die penalties, how would you affect the already rolled headbutt?  In this case Rick already rolled 4 dice for his attack.  If Sven goes first and gives him 2 dice of penalties would Rick have to re-roll with 2 dice, or would the dice he already rolled still stand?

Oh, this one is easy. Always remember the currency (page 75 in the rulebook): 1 score point = 1 die = 1 victory = 1 bonus = 1 penalty

Rick does not have to re-roll; his dice stands. However, Sven gets 2 extra bonus dice! Is this game great or what?


Cheers,

/Peter

[Judd]

Yay Peter, Yay Ron, Yay Bob.

Group hug.

That is all.

Carry on.

Story now, motherfucker.

[ubergeek2012]

Oh, this one is easy. Always remember the currency (page 75 in the rulebook): 1 score point = 1 die = 1 victory = 1 bonus = 1 penalty

Rick does not have to re-roll; his dice stands. However, Sven gets 2 extra bonus dice! Is this game great or what?

Cheers,

/Peter

Ah, yes.  Now I've had my "duh" moment for the day.  :)

Thanks.

[Ian Christiansen]

Hey gang,

I am new to this forum, but have been winging my own Sorcerer sessions since playing a demo with Moose at the last GenCon in Milwaukee.  Looking through the posts here, I think I've been doing many things wrong.

In relation to this topic, can a character only apply one descriptor to their attack for bonuses?  My group likes the Sorcerer and Sword stuff best, and we've had many combat monsters over the years with multiple combat-related descriptors.  So, if a character has a Martial Regime descriptor for Stamina, and a Past of Soldier, would they get to use both for potential bonus dice?

Thanks in advance, you'll probably be seeing a lot of me around here in times to come.

[Hisho]

So, if a character has a Martial Regime descriptor for Stamina, and a Past of Soldier, would they get to use both for potential bonus dice?

I would say no because Martial Regime is your normal stamina descriptor, well getting a bonus die for its best use (a good description how this really helps you in the combat) is another story.

The Past "soldier" is then used as Ron has written above in the example using cover.

[angelfromanotherpin]

In &Sword Ron mentions that it is possible for Stamina to have two relevant descriptors: 'Savage-raised' and 'Military Training' come to mind.  Under those circumstances, it is possible to roll one Stamina descriptor for bonus dice to the other one.

I think.

[Peter Nordstrand]

Hi and welcome to The Forge,

So, if a character has a Martial Regime descriptor for Stamina, and a Past of Soldier, would they get to use both for potential bonus dice?

No, one score would be used to give bonuses, while the other would be used in the real roll, just as in Ron's post, above. The score used in step 3 in Ron's post ("rolling the dice") is not also used to get a bonus. Does this help?

All the best,

/Peter