Humanity Gain questions...

[Ian Christiansen]

Hey all,

I've recently started a Sorcerer game with a couple of friends who are new to the system.  My questions today, brought to my mind by one of my players, relate to Humanity and gaining it.

The core book says:  "If a sorcerer Banishes a demon whose current Power exceeds the sorcerer's Humanity, that rates a Humanity gain roll (Humanity against that demon's Power).  So will doing something that, in the GM's opinion, confirms the character as a decent human being, in which case the roll is current Humanity against itself.  Successful rolls mean restoring one point of Humanity."

In the first case, Humanity vs. Demon's Power, which side of the roll has to have the victories for the sorcerer to gain Humanity?  Maybe it is easy to see, and I am just not getting it, but could someone clarify and/or explain this to me?

Before posing my second question, I think I should tell you that we have defined for this game that demons (and angels, for potential future use) are manifested from opposite ends of the spiritual realm.  Sorcerers have the gifted ability to commune with this realm, hence the rituals of Contacting, Summoning, and Banishing.  The other rituals seem to take place in the "real" world completely, but only sorcerers can use them of course.  Humanity is the person's level of connection to the material, or "real" world.  With 0 Humanity, the sorcerer has lost his connection to the real world, and could be anything from a psychotic maniac with no regard for society, to a spaced-out spiritualist rambling nonsensically about the visions he has had of the higher place.  Either way, people can no longer relate to him, nor he to them.

So, second question:  what kind of things would you think catalyze a roll for Humanity gain?  Should I stick with the "something that, in the GM's opinion, confirms the character as a decent human being?"  In fact, is that rule always so, or should it depend on the definition of Humanity?

I imagine there'll be more discussion necessary, but I'd like to see what kind of response this gets first.  Thanks in advance for any advice and clarifications.

Ian

[angelfromanotherpin]

The Humanity vs Power roll must have victories on the Humanity side for Humanity to be increased.  It is an underdog position to try to gain from.

Given the Humanity definition you pose, I'd say that Humanity gain rolls come about when a Sorcerer affirms his relationships with normal society, thereby increasing his connection to the 'real' world.  The general circumstances for gain are described by the GM before play begins to get everyone on the same page, but if everyone is on that page, it will be immediately obvious by the responses of the players what constitutes an opportunity for gain.

The mini-supplement Inside has a similar sort of Humanity definition, and I recommend checking it out.  It's Matrix-inspired, but all it's ideas can be ported into a less tech-oriented setting.

http://www.chimera.info/daedalus/archive/winter2004.html

[Ian Christiansen]

Angel,

Thanks for the link!  I'm definitely gonna take a good look at it.  I find that reading mini-supplements, and also threads about other people's games, help me to relate more to the system and style of Sorcerer. 

I do question (wrongly, I'm sure) the Humanity vs. Power roll logic, though.  If a sorcerer is down to 1 Humanity, and he destroys or Banishes a demon of Power 3, he is more likely to gain Humanity than if he were to somehow get rid of a demon of Power 8?  I understand the underdog side of it, and agree that it should be tough to regain Humanity... even tougher the lower it gets.  I just don't see why Banishing or destroying a demon of higher Power should make it tougher to gain Humanity. 

Thanks again for your reply, and I look forward to any further discussion on the topic... from you or anyone else.  This is a great forum y'all run here, and I find wonderful new things here almost every day!

Ian

[angelfromanotherpin]

Someone on this board (I forget who) said that it helps to think about it this way.  Banishing involves as much exposure to the Humanity-anathema that is Demonic Power as Contacting, Summoning or Binding.  Casting the thing out automatically gives you a point of Humanity back.  Unfortunately, the necessary exposure forces an immediate Humanity loss check.

[Trevis Martin]

Hi Ian,

Another resource for rules questions is Doyce Testerman's Socerer Wiki He's collected a lot of answers there and referenced them to the threads they were answered in.  Not discouraging you from asking here of course!  Just something I some of us Sorcerer players have found useful.

Trevis

[Ian Christiansen]

Hey guys,

I appreciate the replies, and would like to address you each here. 

First, to Angel:  I see that your real name is Jules, and I will make an effort to use that instead of Angel, though Angel is a pretty cool handle IMHO... so forgive me if I slip.  Your explanation (technically someone else's, but you know what I mean) makes sense to me, and I get it now.  I hadn't considered it from that perspective.  Thanks a million!

Second, to Trevis:  Thanks for the RandomWiki link, that will be quite handy!  I'm by no means discouraged at all from posting questions here, but rather encouraged by the quick and helpful replies I've received.

Thanks again to you both, I really appreciate it all.  Now, if only I knew some RPG fans here in Dublin, I'd be set.  On second thought, the internet bit is working out okay, and I love my group back home in the various States.

Ian

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Ian,

Am I right in thinking that this is not an actual-play concern, but rather a reading-rules concern?

If so, then I suggest seeing what you think after you've seen the rules in action, for banishing demons that do and do not fulfill the conditions for a Humanity gain roll.

The current rules about Banishing and the potential for Humanity gain were baked through extensive playtesting, using all sorts of different concepts. They carry maximum thematic impact but minimum, if any, potential for strategizing. I'd rather not lay all the possibilities out as a technical explanation until you've seen the rules functioning in play.

If I'm wrong, and this did arise out of actual play, then let me know more about the fictional scene and what happened.

Best,
Ron

[Ian Christiansen]

Hey Ron,

You are absolutely correct in that it arose from reading the rules.  We are gonna have another session soon, and will get the opportunity to exercise the rules as they have been explained here.  The funny thing to me is, how long I have been playing this game the wrong way, and yet... it's still one of my favorite games!

I'll let you know later on how it worked out for us, and what I (and my players) think now that I've got it right.  I'm sure more questions will come later as well... I tend to ask a lot!

Ian

[Ian Christiansen]

Hey gang,

This question just came up in gameplay:  if a Demon is Punished and then Banished, for the purpose of Humanity Gain potential do you count its current Power (1 in our case) or its original Power (5)?

The sorcerer only had 1 Humanity, so it was kind of important to our scenario.  I allowed him to roll his Humanity versus its current Power (1 vs. 1) for Humanity Gain, since there was lots of risk involved in getting it to the point at which he could pull off the Banish.  If the dice had gone its way, it could have easily killed him.  For the Banish mechanic the sorcerer had a base of 1 (instant sorcery) with 4 rollover bonuses from the Punish and 1 die for a cool quip and description.  The Demon had Power(1) + Will (5) minus damage penalties (2) for a total of 4 dice.  I think I did that right...

Thoughts, comments, or suggestions?

Cheers,
Ian

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I use the demon's current Power, just as you did. In many cases, although not yours, that means the sorcerer is not eligible for a Humanity gain roll from Banishing.

Nice dice/Currency use, by the way.

Best,
Ron