[Stealing Heaven]- a game of occult initiation and human limitations

[Spooky Fanboy]

Mechanics... I'm torn between trying for something functional and simple (d10+mods VS diff or opposed roll) or something funky (die ladder of d4-d20 w/ multiple dice in a pool of different types... limits determine die type, ability determines number of dice...).

-B 

See, I thought a bit about that, and I might suggest some creative borrowing from With Great Power.

Use Cards. Hearts represents people, emotions, living things, creativity bearing fruit. Diamonds represents material fortune (gold diamonds, money, striking oil, etc.) Based on your Sanity, Empathy, or Peace, you get X many cards to set up a design. The opposite is true for your Spades (War, hatred, murder, apathy, human error or stupidity) and Clubs (Omen Surprise!--natural disaster, anvil/sharp piece of glass falls on head, lightning strike, etc.): those are based on your Insanity, Malice, or Ambition.

Set up the ritual like you've previously outlined: Sacred Space, Chalice, Dagger, etc. The player has to fill the ritual based on his  suit: If he's trying to set up an outrageous yet possible accidental death, a la Omen, he needs to fill each ritual spot with clubs. The opposing party (GM or player) needs to counter his actions with Diamonds (good material fortune). Each side lays down a card, and each card must be higher than the last. Whoever lays down the last/highest card wins the Design; each card layed down becomes his suit, and the player must describe the effect of his ritual, or the opposer must describe how it backfires.

Each filled spot is turned into points (how many points based on the basic Attribute score), and each point is either used to secure the goals of the ritual, or can be siphoned to the player for use as good fortune during the next Design/counter-Design.

Just some thoughts. This might mean that a sufficiently talented newbie might be able to pull off a Global Design, but odds are s/he'll be useless for anything else. Player cooperation should still be in order.

Just some thoughts. I really like everything else I've seen so far. 

[TroyLovesRPG]

I like where this is going and it opens up questions about the powerful people in history and today. What if the most powerful, celebrated and infamous characters in history were involved in some form of the occult? Not just the dark side of it, but also with the divine. This could give true motive and justification to organized religions, cults, covens, the freemasons, etc. So, is their a good and evil side to all this, or just shades of grey? When people retain tremendous power, does absolute power corrupt absolutely. That could be a real challenge in your game. How do you seek ascendence quickly through world manipulation and still be pure?

I can see how a design is planned to create an alignment of juxtaposing or opposite forces through real-world events. To do this involves a great number of people. Retaining those people to execute the design (even unwittingly) requires you to give them what they want. Part of the character's power may be measured in terms of political influence, disposable wealth, charisma, bartering secrets, private membership and occult knowledge. Imparting those resources to the willing enables you to direct the actions of many. They may or may not be successful, and you lose the power regardless. Its a gamble and the stakes are high.

I see this kind of machination common in high society, political arenas, celebrity spotlights, the well-to-do and also with the persuasive small-town seer and holy men. Each is crafting his own design and using his ways to get what he wants.

A possible use of the Tarot deck is to base the execution of the design on the major arcana. The major arcana is described as a complete path in life and each step (card) describes an important challenge/awakening in one's life. The first card is The Fool and is the child-like free spirit in everyone. Most people never pass this step, remaining in an ignorant (yet blissful) state until death. The next card is The Magician and represents the beginnings of true adult power of will and consciousness--the first step in your initiation. Now, a complete reading is done for the character and it really is the representation of his life. Use the Celtic cross layout and you have 10 cards to define the character's life with regards to ascension. Don't draw the last card as it is the outcome. The card desired by all is The World as it represents the last step in the life path. With The Fool and The Magician completed, the character draws a new card from the deck at the culmination of the design. If it isn't The World then there are new challenges and design complications in store. I don't see that a character can work on one design and its going to work immediately--even after a year.

The reading done for the character, defines the character in occult terms. Use the card meanings to create a story for the character.

The unique thing about the Tarot deck is that each character has their own deck. As cards are drawn and revealed, they are never used again. When the same card is drawn by two different characters then there may be a potential for mutual benefit or conflict. The possibility of this happening is remote, but there can be tremendous forces coming to bear when it does.

As a character brings powerful forces into play, excecuting the design, he draws a card to represent the event. If The World card is drawn then the character receives a taste of what is yet to come and receives some power. The World card is returned to the deck as it only is final when the outcome of the design is in question. As challenges and events are completed, the design becomes more powerful and the character is able to excute steps more quickly.

Since there are 78 cards in the deck, 11 are initially used, there will be only 67 cards remaining. If a character uses 1 card per step in the design, the chances of succeeding are increased but not guaranteed. Of course, there must be desciptions of the cards in terms of your game and how they affect play. I'm looking at my deck and it is conceivable to use the descriptions as they are (including reverse meanings) while the suits determine the power area, court cards are the people involved and the major arcana are news-worthy events that could potentially affect all characters.

Troy

[Bailywolf]

I actually hadn't considered cards yet... hmm... cards might be a good medium for this... they can provide a lot of information (number, color, suit, face. wild), and can be manipulated in intresting ways...  give me a couple of hours on this.

I like where this is going and it opens up questions about the powerful people in history and today. What if the most powerful, celebrated and infamous characters in history were involved in some form of the occult?

Close... except rather than be involved in the occult, they are elements in an occult desing.  Initiates like to play a game when reading history- they look at the circumstances of history, and try and figure who and what are parts of some other Initiate's design, and what its purpose was.  It's the kind of thing can make you paranoide- did Hitler rise in power because he was a mad charasmatic little man ariving just when his society was ready for such a thing?  Or was he some Initiate's Sword, ready to sweep the Circle of Europe clean of all opposed influences in preperation for the real Design to get underway.

Designs would map pretty well to RW ritual magic traditions- I may pick a standard one to keep things simple, or players may define the Elements and how they relate to each other.  Remember, manipulating the oil company, the price of crude, the War on Terror, and the US President isn't the goal of a Desing- those things are the ritual elements which produce another effect- generally something which can vault an Initiate into a higher order of power. 

-B

[Bailywolf]

Quick question...  I'm not trying to cook a generic magic toolkit game, rather I want to boil some common elements out of RW ritual magic traditions (be they religious, secular, nature-based or whatever), and give them easy to remember names and easy to understand functions within a Design.   Also, how the Elements relate to the desired outcome of the Design. 

In formulating a Design, Elements are Ordered- based on how they act and interact, they are arranged so that they function in particular ways in relation to each other, thus defining the nature of the outcome.  Sometimes, this is linier- one Element leads into another.  Other times, they interact in more complex ways, in pentacles or patterns of interaction.  Formulating a design involves deciding on how the Elements interact, defining the elements, and then manipulating them in the proper way to facilitate the desired outcome.  The last part will make up the bulk of Design game play.

Here is what I am currently thinking for Elements:

Circle- defines the ritual space; the arena in which the other Elements play out their interactions.  The final Effect extends beyond the circle.  Examples- the Movie Industry, St. Mary's Hospital, Dwightville, the Five-Points location of Jittery Joe's Coffee.

Sword- defines the element which severs, cuts, or destroys, or commands that such things be done.  Generally done to make way for something new, but sometimes the Sword is the prime Elements in a Design.  Examples- a movie producer, a mercy killer nurse, a crusading sheriff, a new manager. 

Chalice- defines the womb from which something new will be born or created- the element which precipitates change.  Examples- the movie studio, a pregnant woman, the new downtown bypass project,  a new menu.   

Wand- defines the directing principle, that which governs or directs.  The genius behind a thing.  Can be used to direct, or to thwart direction.  Examples- A talented director, a new head of Internal Medicine, the mayor, the long-time employee. 

Star- defines the raw materials, the energy, the stuff which will be worked with- the unpatterned potential, or the chaos left after an unraveling.  Examples- a talented up-and-coming actor, the unborn child, Dwightville's economic prosperity, Jittery Joe's loyal customers. 

Elements within a design either oppose or promote one another, and a given desired outcome determines how the Elements are ordered.  Designs intended to gain you a new rank of Initiation would work a bit differently. 

Alright... and example.

You're an Initiate- a fairly recent one- and the scope of your occult perception doesn't extend very far yet... you're limited to an "area" (defined as a combination of how many people and how much stuff you can affect) of about the size of a Wal-Mart store.  Say, an area a mile on the side, about a thousand people, and a time span of a month.

While buying cat food, you get an inkling of something... an active Design in this very Wal-Mart!  To gain further information, you need to prepare a Divination to scry out the nature of this Design and its Designer. 

Divination is a linier Design- Sword to purge the Circle of noise, allowing you to receive the desired occult signal.  Wand to 'tune' in the desired signal.  Chalice to receive the signal.  And Star to become the signal codified into a perceptible message.   

The Circle is defined based on your best guess as to the other Design's circle- this Wal-Mart. 

The Sword you choose is a harried middle manager who will fire any employees who might generate any psychic or synchronous static due to unrealized occult potential. 

The Wand is the store's HR manager who will interview and hire new people.

The Chalice is the pool of applicants for the job.

The Star is a message formed from the letters in the names of those hired which will describe the other Initiate, and the purpose of his Design.

Each Element must be separately manipulated to make the Design successful, and each involves at least one Scene (and perhaps more) played out.  Designs take as long as they take- and sometimes, players can take longer, run additional scenes, and build up really impressive roll-over success to make their Designs especially potent.  Other times, when the clock is ticking, they might find they have to cut corners to make it work, using direct and brutal methods to move their Elements into the correct alignment. 

-B

[Anders Larsen]

I have a few thing I have thought about.

There really should be an enemy, someone that don't like what the Initiated are doing and try to counter it (I think that someone mention this somewhere in this thread, but I can not find it now). And because the Initiated want into paradise, it must be the representative of heaven, that tries to stop him. And an representative of heaven is angles.

Of course angles cannot just come down and kill a person, they are governed by rules like so many other creatures, so they have to be more subtle.


What Troy mentioned about tarot card is a really good idea. You can use the major arcana as a scale for how the initiated rise to transcendent; starting with The Fool, and ending with The Universe. The minor arcana, that represent the different state of the elements, can show how you can control the elements.

ex. you draw a number of cards from the minor arcana. These card show what elements you right now can control and how. If you have the 'seven of cups', you can lay that down and induce 'misuse of feelings' into the water element. If you have 'four of stars' you can induce 'wealth' into the earth element. And of course, if you turn the card on there head, they do the opposite. When you can draw new card and how many can depend on the reward you get.

Every time you have made a Design, you will get a new major arcana to you collection, until you have collected all 22. And maybe you can scarify on of the major arcana to get more power in the moment. Then you have to get it again, but it may be necessary is an angel is after you.

btw, Why does the initiated want to "steal heaven". What do they expect when they get there?

- Anders

[Bailywolf]

I have a few thing I have thought about.

There really should be an enemy, someone that don't like what the Initiated are doing and try to counter it (I think that someone mention this somewhere in this thread, but I can not find it now). And because the Initiated want into paradise, it must be the representative of heaven, that tries to stop him. And an representative of heaven is angles.


btw, Why does the initiated want to "steal heaven". What do they expect when they get there?

An enemy... oh yeah, there sure is.  The 'Heaven' of the title isn't the heaven of anybody's religion- all contain pieces of the truth, but none the entirety.  Its... perfection, grace, transcendence... its whatever an Initiate desires more than anything else in the world- even if those desires are unspoken.   But it has its guardians- orders and cults dedicated to preserving it from Human despoilers... and its enemies- those dedicated to dragging it down and destroying it.  The opposition is most other Initiates, wise (or foolish) depending on your point of view, who seek to prevent others from breaking the Celestial Egg and lapping up the bright yellow yolk of godhood.  Sometimes with counter-designs, and sometimes with a bullet in the face. 

And then there is the Enemy, and every religion in the world contains echoes of this as well.  The Enemy wants to simply end us, to drag the human world down into a sewer of chaos and madness and suffering.  And sometimes, because the ambitions of Initiates can sometimes open a way for it, the Enemy seeks to aid you whether you want it or not.

All initiate seekers are driven by some core inadequacy- manifest at the point of no return for them as a Sin.  Some kind of act which irrevocably sets them on the path that peruse.  An opportunity squandered... a crime committed.  The Sin is a goad, driving Initiates on. 

It's a game about bad people.

-B

[Bailywolf]

Card Mechanics:

While I like the idea of using Tarot... as a player and designer, I like as few barriers between getting the game and playing it.  I like designs that use d6's and d10's as most gamers have piles of these.  Regular playing cards are nice too- cheap enough for everyone to have a deck, and easy enough to get at the grocery store.  Tarot decks are kind of pricy, and harder to come by. 

If I go with cards, I'd use a standard poker deck I think, if only to keep the costs down.

-Ben

[Certified]

Card Mechanics:

While I like the idea of using Tarot... as a player and designer, I like as few barriers between getting the game and playing it.  I like designs that use d6's and d10's as most gamers have piles of these.  Regular playing cards are nice too- cheap enough for everyone to have a deck, and easy enough to get at the grocery store.  Tarot decks are kind of pricy, and harder to come by. 

If I go with cards, I'd use a standard poker deck I think, if only to keep the costs down.

-Ben

I've been following this thread for awhile now and just wanted to throw in my two cents. If you do try a card based system, or cards and dice, maybe there is room for both, i.e. here are the rules for with Tarot Cards and here is its playing card equivalent. As for accessibility I think all the big book stores now have a New Age section. Tarot Decks can be pricey, most decks I've seen are about 15 dollars or more some are upwards of 50 or more. Good luck with the game, I look forward to seeing how it develops.

[Spooky Fanboy]

Here is what I am currently thinking for Elements:

Circle- defines the ritual space; the arena in which the other Elements play out their interactions.  The final Effect extends beyond the circle.  Examples- the Movie Industry, St. Mary's Hospital, Dwightville, the Five-Points location of Jittery Joe's Coffee.

Sword- defines the element which severs, cuts, or destroys, or commands that such things be done.  Generally done to make way for something new, but sometimes the Sword is the prime Elements in a Design.  Examples- a movie producer, a mercy killer nurse, a crusading sheriff, a new manager. 

Chalice- defines the womb from which something new will be born or created- the element which precipitates change.  Examples- the movie studio, a pregnant woman, the new downtown bypass project,  a new menu.   

Wand- defines the directing principle, that which governs or directs.  The genius behind a thing.  Can be used to direct, or to thwart direction.  Examples- A talented director, a new head of Internal Medicine, the mayor, the long-time employee. 

Star- defines the raw materials, the energy, the stuff which will be worked with- the unpatterned potential, or the chaos left after an unraveling.  Examples- a talented up-and-coming actor, the unborn child, Dwightville's economic prosperity, Jittery Joe's loyal customers. 

Elements within a design either oppose or promote one another, and a given desired outcome determines how the Elements are ordered.  Designs intended to gain you a new rank of Initiation would work a bit differently. 

...

Each Element must be separately manipulated to make the Design successful, and each involves at least one Scene (and perhaps more) played out.  Designs take as long as they take- and sometimes, players can take longer, run additional scenes, and build up really impressive roll-over success to make their Designs especially potent.  Other times, when the clock is ticking, they might find they have to cut corners to make it work, using direct and brutal methods to move their Elements into the correct alignment.

Hmm...Two questions. Is it possible in this game, in order to insure completion of the Design, to take Flawed elements into the design, guaranteeing that it will do it's job, but there will be fallout/"unforseen complications?"

Also, if you wouldn't mind, an example I'm sure almost everyone is familiar with: The Omen 666 movies. Is Damien working Designs, or is he under the protection of a (powerful) Design himself, which is why people end up dead around him?

[Danny_K]

The Circle is defined based on your best guess as to the other Design's circle- this Wal-Mart. 

The Sword you choose is a harried middle manager who will fire any employees who might generate any psychic or synchronous static due to unrealized occult potential. 

The Wand is the store's HR manager who will interview and hire new people.

The Chalice is the pool of applicants for the job.

The Star is a message formed from the letters in the names of those hired which will describe the other Initiate, and the purpose of his Design.

Each Element must be separately manipulated to make the Design successful, and each involves at least one Scene (and perhaps more) played out.  Designs take as long as they take- and sometimes, players can take longer, run additional scenes, and build up really impressive roll-over success to make their Designs especially potent.  Other times, when the clock is ticking, they might find they have to cut corners to make it work, using direct and brutal methods to move their Elements into the correct alignment. 

This example is really very cool!  I can see the interaction of the two systems that I mentioned before -- each Element is its own task, with its own potential for complications and challenges, and also fits into the greater meta-task of the Design.  This also reminds me a bit of Sorcerer's Contact-Summon-Bind mechanics. 

One question: who decides what the "correct" alignment is, or if Elements have been properly manipulated?  Is this entirely up to the agreement of GM and player, according to the setting and theme of the particular game, or will you have a more prescriptive approach? 

I'm interested in whether you get more points for destructive tampering.  For example, would the divining ritual be more effective if the Initiatewas somehow screwing up the operations of the Wal-Mart, or would it be less effective?  Or does the Adept have any control over the effect he has on this Wal-Mart's operation.

[Bailywolf]

Hmm...Two questions. Is it possible in this game, in order to insure completion of the Design, to take Flawed elements into the design, guaranteeing that it will do it's job, but there will be fallout/"unforseen complications?"

Also, if you wouldn't mind, an example I'm sure almost everyone is familiar with: The Omen 666 movies. Is Damien working Designs, or is he under the protection of a (powerful) Design himself, which is why people end up dead around him?

The way I have designs thunk out is still quite plastic, but the assumption is that if you sort of hose one Element but don't totally blow it, you can complete the Design (with reduced over all effect) by picking up the slack on later Elements.  They are more like tasks to be done than things to be taken... which is to say, when you define them, you establish (or they imply) a course of action- something your character needs to do to properly move that element into position relative to the next one.

In Omen... it could go either way, but I'd be inclined to say that Damien is someone's Sword, and he's clearing the Circle for the main event.

-B

[Bailywolf]

This example is really very cool!  I can see the interaction of the two systems that I mentioned before -- each Element is its own task, with its own potential for complications and challenges, and also fits into the greater meta-task of the Design.  This also reminds me a bit of Sorcerer's Contact-Summon-Bind mechanics. 

One question: who decides what the "correct" alignment is, or if Elements have been properly manipulated?  Is this entirely up to the agreement of GM and player, according to the setting and theme of the particular game, or will you have a more prescriptive approach? 

I'm interested in whether you get more points for destructive tampering.  For example, would the divining ritual be more effective if the Initiatewas somehow screwing up the operations of the Wal-Mart, or would it be less effective?  Or does the Adept have any control over the effect he has on this Wal-Mart's operation.

I've been thinking about this a bit... I don't know if there is any practical way to do the alignment of a Design more complex than a line... and without some real mechanical effect ( a link between types of effects and the arrangement of the elements perhaps), there isn't much point.  Arrange them in sequence, than work the Design in that order. 

Here's the real dirty secret of Designs, and where they break from the more conventional magical rituals- what happens to the Elements of your Design don't really matter.  Initiates callously manipulate the world around them, pushing and prodding people into the proper synchronous alignment.  Generally, they don't much care what happens to the Wal-Mart or the HR manager- they are just components... like candles or a chalked circle on a sanctum floor.  If the candles melt down to nubs, or the circle gets scuffed... who cares?  In the end, the magic works, and that's the important bit.

Now the kick- because of Limits, the un-calloused Initiate benefits by taking the harder path of gentle persuasion and tries to minimize the harm done... so his efforts aren't overly hampered by his own humanity.  The initiate far gone into depravity and malice has a real advantage- he can strongarm his Elements, and force them into alignment.  Working faster and harder.  But... he's a real prick on the side.

-B

[Spooky Fanboy]

And then there is the Enemy, and every religion in the world contains echoes of this as well.  The Enemy wants to simply end us, to drag the human world down into a sewer of chaos and madness and suffering.  And sometimes, because the ambitions of Initiates can sometimes open a way for it, the Enemy seeks to aid you whether you want it or not.

Hmm. Here's a thought: Perhaps an Initiate can succeed at a design that might otherwise have botched or failed---if he takes certain "debt" (however that manifests) from the Enemy. How that "debt" manifests, I don't know...but it should be visible in some way, either a mark, lowered Positive Attributes, or some side effect (negative) from the Initiate's Designs.

[Bailywolf]

And then there is the Enemy, and every religion in the world contains echoes of this as well.  The Enemy wants to simply end us, to drag the human world down into a sewer of chaos and madness and suffering.  And sometimes, because the ambitions of Initiates can sometimes open a way for it, the Enemy seeks to aid you whether you want it or not.

Hmm. Here's a thought: Perhaps an Initiate can succeed at a design that might otherwise have botched or failed---if he takes certain "debt" (however that manifests) from the Enemy. How that "debt" manifests, I don't know...but it should be visible in some way, either a mark, lowered Positive Attributes, or some side effect (negative) from the Initiate's Designs.

That's a total Yoink right there.  Something like Conspiracy of Shadows' Doom concept.

-B

[Spooky Fanboy]

That's a total Yoink right there.  Something like Conspiracy of Shadows' Doom concept.

-B

If you borrow it, may I make a suggestion? Like the Demons of Dogs in the Vineyard, give The Enemy no personality. Let it be, if It's visible at all, a distortion of the Initiate that It's taken over. Different aspects of the Enemy manifest depending on who channels It.