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Author Topic: A way to win when you want to?  (Read 6920 times)
Sindyr
Member

Posts: 795


« on: March 19, 2006, 08:07:27 AM »

If I recall correctly, when creating the Scene you can bring in one character for free, and extra characters for one story token each. Or, you can bring in character's later in the middle of the scene for the same cost.

If I want to dominate the storyline, why wouldn't I save all my story tokens for this?

Example, I have 4 story tokens from playing a couple of villains earlier.  I have been husbanding them.  Now I am in a scene that I want to win and so I don't just bring in Johnny Storm, I bring in the entire Fantastic Four - all four of them.

So now I have 4 Heroes in play and the villain is outnumbered 4 to 1.

Now with multiple Heroes at my disposal, what does that do for me tactically?  What is the benefit of having multiple Heroes there?

If each Hero gets an action, than the benefit is obvious - and overwhelming.  If the villain can act on a die and I can react 4 times, he is going to get slaughtered.

On the other hand, if even if its one action per player, not Hero, than maybe the benefit is with more total powers in play you can have many more turns than your opponent per page.  After all, if he has 7 powered abilities, he can only use 7 abilities each once this page.  With my 4 Heroes, I can use 28.  I can also store much more debt than he can - 4 times as much - without being overdrawn.

Either way, unless I am very mistaken, the most efficient use of story tokens is by far to bring in additional forces to help you side.

Why would you ever use story tokens any other way?  Especially when you don't care about overdrawing the relief forces because you can simply not use them again and create all new relief forces next time.

Either I am making a significant mistake, or this is a major flaw in Capes and I have just found it.
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-Sindyr
jburneko
Member

Posts: 1351


« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2006, 10:24:35 AM »

Hello,

Rules Clearifications:

1) You can only purchase new characters at the top of a Page, not anywhere in the scene.
2) You do indeed get one Action per Character on your turn,
3) However, when it is someone elses turn, you only get one Re-Action per Player.
4) Furthermore, when you use Story Token's to purchase extra actions after the first go around on the Page, you are puchings individual Actions of individual Characters.  You only get the bombardment on your first free turn.

Yes, this is pretty damn powerful.  In my game we had one guy store up all his story tokens for just this purpose.  He brought in something like 10 characters.  The remaining four players could only bring in one or two, maybe three appiece.  We were slaughtered.

HOWEVER!  Despite the odds we were not slaughtered on Page 1 of the Scene.  So using Story Tokens for extra actions was a very effective way for those of us with fewer characters to hedge our sides because if the player with 10 characters wanted to keep up during that Page he had to purachase actions as well which only allowed him to use 1 of character, not all 10.  The longer we could use our Story Tokens to prevent the Page from ending the longer we could hold off the 10 Actions from that player on a single turn the next page.

We lost anyway.  Now, he's out of story tokens and we had a shit load.  Time for the Heroes to rise again!

Not a bug.  A feature.

Jesse
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Sindyr
Member

Posts: 795


« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2006, 10:45:17 AM »

Thanks for responding.

Rules Clarifications:
1) You can only purchase new characters at the top of a Page, not anywhere in the scene.

Cool. So if I am in danger of losing a goal, if I can guarantee I wont lose it this page, starting next page I can summon as many superfriends as I have tokens.

Quote
2) You do indeed get one Action per Character on your turn,

Wow - so I can create a Goal, take an action, etc as many times as I have characters in the scene/page?

Quote
3) However, when it is someone else's turn, you only get one Re-Action per Player.

So I can't swarm them with reactions - but I can with actions since I can out resource them. - Once they overdraw their Drives I have them where I want them.  I don't have to give them story tokens because I don't have to stake debt - because these support troops are throwaways, I may not care how much debt they wind up with.

Quote
4) Furthermore, when you use Story Token's to purchase extra actions after the first go around on the Page, you are purchasing individual Actions of individual Characters.  You only get the bombardment on your first free turn.

Yes, true, but given that I can import a resource rich newly created super for one story token I can't imagine I
ever (except rarely) need or want to spend them in any other way.

My my super hero's base concept is that he has friends *everywhere*.  Heh Heh.

Quote
Yes, this is pretty damn powerful.  In my game we had one guy store up all his story tokens for just this purpose.  He brought in something like 10 characters.  The remaining four players could only bring in one or two, maybe three apiece.  We were slaughtered.

HOWEVER!  Despite the odds we were not slaughtered on Page 1 of the Scene.  So using Story Tokens for extra actions was a very effective way for those of us with fewer characters to hedge our sides because if the player with 10 characters wanted to keep up during that Page he had to purchase actions as well which only allowed him to use 1 of character, not all 10.  The longer we could use our Story Tokens to prevent the Page from ending the longer we could hold off the 10 Actions from that player on a single turn the next page.

We lost anyway.  Now, he's out of story tokens and we had a shit load.  Time for the Heroes to rise again!

I am not sure that with so many resources at my disposal I would need to stake debt too often, especially with my newly minted forces being expendable and therefor being unconcerned with how much debt they have.

As far as I can see, in almost all situations, story tokens are best spent in getting friends to show up and help.  Anyone who consistently spends tokens in other ways would seem to be at a disadvantage.

Doesn't this sort of break the game in that it makes there be one best way to spend tokens?  Wouldn't it be better if the different ways to spend tokens all had their own advantages that balanced out so that you actually had to strategize on how to spend your tokens for maximum effectiveness, instead of knowing from the start which token spending strategy is best 95% of the time?

Just asking - I have a system oriented mind.
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-Sindyr
jburneko
Member

Posts: 1351


« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2006, 11:00:13 AM »

I think what you're asking is addressed by the, "You have to purchase characters at the top of a Page." rule.  In play, I found the tide of a conflict to be VERY VERY random no matter how many actions/reactions occur.  So you find yourself at the end of the Page, where you're stuck with the choice of spend tokens for extra actions, or lose the goal now.  You can't bring in re-inforcements.  Then your opponent buys an extra action or two and swings it back to his side.  You still can't buy those reinforcements and again, if you let the Page end so that you can bring in reinforcements, you'll lose the current conflict.

This happens A LOT.  So you might say, yes, the most effective use of Story Tokens is to buy lots of characters at the Top of a Scene or Page.  But given the randomness of resolution the best use of Story Tokens is for extra actions at the end of Page so that your conflict won't be resolved BEFORE you can buy those characters.

Plus, who says, all the reinforcments are displosable? Disposable to you, yes, but  I can choose to play one of them at the top of the next scene.  One of those disposable reinforcments might be the next major hero/villain of the story.  And if you just piled up Debt on him, he's now one of the most powerful characters I can choose to play.

Jesse
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Sindyr
Member

Posts: 795


« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2006, 11:53:44 AM »

I think what you're asking is addressed by the, "You have to purchase characters at the top of a Page." rule.  In play, I found the tide of a conflict to be VERY VERY random no matter how many actions/reactions occur.  So you find yourself at the end of the Page, where you're stuck with the choice of spend tokens for extra actions, or lose the goal now.  You can't bring in re-inforcements.  Then your opponent buys an extra action or two and swings it back to his side.  You still can't buy those reinforcements and again, if you let the Page end so that you can bring in reinforcements, you'll lose the current conflict.

True, you may have to stage a holding action some of the time before you can bring in reinforcements.

Quote
Plus, who says, all the reinforcments are displosable? Disposable to you, yes, but  I can choose to play one of them at the top of the next scene.  One of those disposable reinforcments might be the next major hero/villain of the story.  And if you just piled up Debt on him, he's now one of the most powerful characters I can choose to play.

Well, maybe that would be fine with me - I can get all the characters' Debt tokens as story tokens and rinse and repeat.

On the other hand, if you grab the characters with all their new debt and play them in ways that are inconsistant with their previous actions and behaviours, there will be a problem with the story and events and people change inexplicably and inconsistantly.
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-Sindyr
TonyLB
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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2006, 11:54:17 AM »

I don't have to give them story tokens because I don't have to stake debt - because these support troops are throwaways, I may not care how much debt they wind up with.

But ... I thought you wanted to win?

If your opponent stakes two debt, and one of their dice eventually rolls a six, then you cannot beat them without staking debt.  It doesn't matter how many characters you throw at the problem, the seven+ value on their side of the conflict will always exceed the value of your one die.  Unless you stake, the result is "They win, you lose."
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Sindyr
Member

Posts: 795


« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2006, 12:02:32 PM »

Can't I use my vast resources to roll down *their* dice?

And if I *have* to stake debt, I can as a last recourse.

Also, with so many characters I should be able to farm inspirations fairly easily - this should help.
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-Sindyr
TonyLB
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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2006, 12:16:27 PM »

Well, like I was saying ... if they roll a six, you can't roll it down.  It sticks there.

There's also a lot of reasons that it's easier to roll up than to roll down.  With five characters you've got, at most, five abilities that can roll down a five.  My one character has nine abilities that can roll up a two.  You see how it really isn't symmetric around the middle of the die-range?

You can get some inspirations, yeah.  But only to the tune of one conflict per page (because that's all you claim for free).  And if you won't stake debt then even that inspiration will probably be pretty paltry.

I just don't see this strategy giving you the spectacular power you predict until you leaven it with a generous expenditure of debt.
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Just published: Capes
New Project:  Misery Bubblegum
Sindyr
Member

Posts: 795


« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2006, 12:42:39 PM »

Well, like I was saying ... if they roll a six, you can't roll it down.  It sticks there.

Sorry, I had a brain fart there - you are of course correct. Good point.

Quote
There's also a lot of reasons that it's easier to roll up than to roll down.  With five characters you've got, at most, five abilities that can roll down a five.  My one character has nine abilities that can roll up a two.  You see how it really isn't symmetric around the middle of the die-range?

You can get some inspirations, yeah.  But only to the tune of one conflict per page (because that's all you claim for free).  And if you won't stake debt then even that inspiration will probably be pretty paltry.

I just don't see this strategy giving you the spectacular power you predict until you leaven it with a generous expenditure of debt.

You may be absolutely correct - I hope to try out this strategy and report back sometime.

Still, it would surprise me if two players who both have four story tokens - one brings in four extra characters at the beginning of the scene, the other uses his four tokens throught the scene doing other things - it would surprise me if the guy with more characters wound up having no more effect than the other guy.

Tony, do you imagine that both strategies will be equally effective?  I would imagine that four character player to be able to win more Goals than the other guy, but I can of course be wrong.

Hmmm.
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-Sindyr
TonyLB
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2006, 01:06:50 PM »

Why don't you give it a try in actual play, and see how it turns out?
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Just published: Capes
New Project:  Misery Bubblegum
Sindyr
Member

Posts: 795


« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2006, 02:44:19 PM »

Man, I would like nothing better.  After all this Capes discussion I am *jonesing* to get going on this.

I am going to have to try to visit a local gaming store and try to make it happen.

Not sure if that will work - guess it depends if anyone shows up who is not already playing some other game.
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-Sindyr
Glendower
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Posts: 182

My name is Jon.


« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2006, 03:25:20 PM »

http://findplay.anvilwerks.com/

I was serious when I said I hoped you found people to play with.  No gamer should be without fellow gamers.
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Hi, my name is Jon.
Sindyr
Member

Posts: 795


« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2006, 04:25:23 PM »

Thank you - jumped on the site and emailing the people I am finding. :)
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-Sindyr
Sindyr
Member

Posts: 795


« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2006, 05:41:52 PM »

Also found this btw:
http://www.rpgregistry.com/
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-Sindyr
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