[Setting Concept]: Asia colonizing the West Coast of the Americas

[BlacklightLion]

This is just an idea that struck me as worth working on as an RPG setting... Japan & China settling the Western coast of the Americas, perhaps prior to the Europeans reaching the Eastern shores? At any rate what I'm getting at is that this would be an 'alternate history' of the world where Europeans control one side of the continent and Asians control the other.

If anyone would like to comment on this situation, I'd appreciate it. I'm doing some research on my own, of course but would love opinions, thoughts, etc.

I'm wondering how the Native Americans would react to a Western invasion and how Asian & Native cultures could theoretically act towards each other. I'd like to progress it to where perhaps cowboys and samurai/ninjas eventually interact...

Weird, I know but it came to me and I had to pursue it :D

PS - I've also posted this to www.rpg.net so I apologize if the overlap is not appreciated

[Anders Larsen]

Hi, and welcome to the Forge

Have you tried to find history related forums and aske there? You may get some interesting answers.

To comment on the roleplaying aspect of this, I need a little more information, so I will ask you a few question.

What kind of conflict do you find interesting in this alternative history?

What part do the characters take in this.

What kind of game do you want out of this? Political game? War game? or something else?

One more thing: Do you have a real name I can call you by, it is a little awkward to call you BlacklightLion.

- Anders

[BlacklightLion]

Thank you for the welcome, I'm pleased to be here. :)

History-related forums are an excellent idea that I had not thought of. I'm taking that down in my development notes, I appreciate the suggestion because it may lead to some better information than I've been able to scavenge so far.

I'm going to attempt to answer your questions as best I can, please bear in mind though that this idea isn't anywhere near as thought-out as I'd like it to be so my answers could possibly shift somewhat over time. Here's how things stand so far:

The conflicts I find most interesting in this alternative history are: the 'colonization/conquest of a new land' (by Europeans and Asians at opposite coasts - while Native civilizations struggle to keep what is theirs -- this is the setting backdrop) and the adventures the PC's will have going on trading expeditions across a wild and sometimes hostile environment.

The characters will be playing the various roles of a trading/exploration team to deliver goods or travelers from one destination to another (by land at this point). Roles may not be by 'character class' but combination of skills such as: navigation, hunting/tracking, firearms, medical, negotiation, etc. that would be most useful in their expeditions. They would be hired by a company to do their work and get paid for their success.

This game is primarily about adventure. The critical aspects are dealing with the environment (weather, wilderness, wildlife) and other humans they encounter along they way, be they Natives, rogues, settlers, military. I'd like a strong emphasis on not just killing everything in the way but sound strategy, social dynamics and a touch of luck.

Hope this answers your questions, feel free to ask anything else and I will elaborate as best I can. I appreciate your interest and your questions have made me think. Thank you. :)

I apologize about the name thing, I'm Reid. Pleasure to meet you!

[JakeVanDam]

There's some evidence that the Far East may have had at least some contact with the West coast. I can't remember any of the details, but we went over it in my high school history class (my teacher had a thing for pre-columbian discoveries).

Alternate historys are always fun, and I haven't heard of any one trying this one before. The scope is broad, which would make it interesting to play, but more work to write. I'd reccomend spending the time to write a more detailed world- some otherwise great setting-based games have been ruined because the setting was poorly thought out or incomplete. With as enthusiastic as you seem to be, though, i doubt this will be a problem.

I've been working on a game set in the 1880's in the Western US. Maybe we could share research? My email's in my profile if you're interested.

[Anders Larsen]

Well, Hi Reid

I searched for "history forums" on google, and it seems like the first 4-5 result could be interesting. And there is a google group named soc.history.what-if http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if. That may be a good place to ask.

One thing I was thinking about, is that there was a huge different in technology level between Asia and native American (native Americans did not use metal except for jewelry), but there view on life and there philosophies, seems to be somewhat similar. On the other hand, Asian people and native Americans, have very little in common with the European culture. This could maybe create some interesting alliances. But I do not know very much about history, so I may be completely wrong here.

The characters will be playing the various roles of a trading/exploration team to deliver goods or travelers from one destination to another (by land at this point). Roles may not be by 'character class' but combination of skills such as: navigation, hunting/tracking, firearms, medical, negotiation, etc. that would be most useful in their expeditions. They would be hired by a company to do their work and get paid for their success.

One thing I would like to see in a setting like this, is a focus on the political and cultural conflicts. Maybe the character, while they are travelling the land, have to take a part of these type of conflict to get their job done.

You are talking a little about system here. You should properly wait till you have a more clear idea about what you want with the game before you begin to think about the system, and at that point I will properly have a lot of advise of how to build a system based in the setting.

One more question: What do you see as being the selling point of this game? What is it that really excite you about this idea? What is it that will make the players go "wow, I really want to play this game"? (I know it may be a little early to answer these questions, but try anyway).

And by the way, if you get some interesting ideas from other forums, please mentions them here, so I will able to follow where you are going.

- Anders

[contracycle]

I agree that this needs some focus.  While the setting idea is pretty cool, it won't be able to survive on that alone.  Take the problems you mention with animals, nature etc, and consider how rarely these sorts of scenes constitute a meaningful part of actual play.  For these tyo actually appear in play and be significant, there will have to be some other reason for the PC's trekking across the wilderness.  It is those other reasons that will drive the setting, however much attention is invested in the fauna and flora.

A good book to read, because it is a thoroughly worked up idea, is Gavin Menzies "1421: The Year China Discovered The World".  It has received some criticism but is still very Interesting, and of course if you are not making any claims to reality then this matters little.  And given the dates, this fits your desired scenario perfectly.

Incidentally, there might be interesting repercussions for world histry that emerge from this.  China famously invented gunpowder but never realy weaponised it.  If Chinese observers among the Aztecs observe Spanish firepower, and develop the technology, the subsequent course of relations between China and the British Empire might be very different indeed.

[BlacklightLion]

There's some evidence that the Far East may have had at least some contact with the West coast. I can't remember any of the details, but we went over it in my high school history class (my teacher had a thing for pre-columbian discoveries).

Yes, I think you're talking about the 1421 Zheng He expedition to the Americas. Here's a link in case you want to see what I've found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

It looks to be interesting (even if speculative and controversial)  information and could make for some excellent setting, I feel.

Alternate historys are always fun, and I haven't heard of any one trying this one before. The scope is broad, which would make it interesting to play, but more work to write. I'd reccomend spending the time to write a more detailed world- some otherwise great setting-based games have been ruined because the setting was poorly thought out or incomplete. With as enthusiastic as you seem to be, though, i doubt this will be a problem.

I agree such a broad setting is going to be a great deal of work. Fortunately, I've got plenty of time to work on it as well as help from my room-mate. I'm going to try to make it captivating while striving not to pour endless pages that dull the mind with Asian words English-speakers (since that's my native language) aren't used to. I don't want it to turn into a jargon-filled tome of a book. My main goal here is to make only the setting that is necessary for functional, entertaining gameplay. I'm wavering over whether to just cover the Asian colonization of the West Coast or Asian & European colonizations of both coasts at once. I'm not of a mind to create multiple books that fans need to buy, but at the same time I'd rather not skimp when it comes to providing a rich gaming atmosphere. Thanks for the compliment on my enthusiasm, also. :)

I've been working on a game set in the 1880's in the Western US. Maybe we could share research? My email's in my profile if you're interested.

I definitely would love to work with you at exchanging research notes and I've PM'd you, as well. Thank you for your comments!

Reid

[BlacklightLion]

I searched for "history forums" on google, and it seems like the first 4-5 result could be interesting. And there is a google group named soc.history.what-if http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if. That may be a good place to ask.

This is a gigantic help and I've filed it into my notes, as well. I'm trying to do as much research ahead of time as I can before I hit those forums in an effort to avoid asking questions a google/wikipedia search could handle.

One thing I was thinking about, is that there was a huge different in technology level between Asia and native American (native Americans did not use metal except for jewelry), but there view on life and there philosophies, seems to be somewhat similar. On the other hand, Asian people and native Americans, have very little in common with the European culture. This could maybe create some interesting alliances. But I do not know very much about history, so I may be completely wrong here.

Yes, I agree that the philosophies seem similar so far as I've researched (which admittedly is not incredibly far, yet). I'm thinking that there would definitely be some similarities in Native and Asiatic cultures. As best I can, I want to avoid stereotyping peoples and instead focus on portraying a plausible alternate history. Hopefully I don't offend anyone's ethnic sensibilities in the process. The setting needs to be primarily entertaining but also as believable as possible.

One thing I would like to see in a setting like this, is a focus on the political and cultural conflicts. Maybe the character, while they are travelling the land, have to take a part of these type of conflict to get their job done.

You are talking a little about system here. You should properly wait till you have a more clear idea about what you want with the game before you begin to think about the system, and at that point I will properly have a lot of advise of how to build a system based in the setting.

Political and cultural conflicts are definitely going to need to take a major spotlight in this setting. It seems that (and please pardon me if I offend anyone because this is not at all my intent) China is relatively pacifist while Japan was a bit more militaristic in approach. Instead of dealing directly with actual dynasties, emperors, etc what I plan to do is create fictional backstories that change the course of history (such as a rise of an Emperor who is charismatic about exploring the 'New World' and decrees that it needs to be colonized). The characters will be able to mix cross-culturally, as well, because I feel that in a frontier setting such as this one there would be ample opportunity to do so.

You're right I'm nowhere near ready to even ponder system until I have a fully realized concept of gameplay so I am just toying with some things as I carve away at the setting. I look forward to your advice on system when that time comes and am grateful you're interested enough to want to contribute!

One more question: What do you see as being the selling point of this game? What is it that really excite you about this idea? What is it that will make the players go "wow, I really want to play this game"? (I know it may be a little early to answer these questions, but try anyway).

And by the way, if you get some interesting ideas from other forums, please mentions them here, so I will able to follow where you are going.

For the main selling point that excites me about this idea and hopefully lights up the eyes of other players is a bit early to say, at this stage. However, I want to hazard a guess nonetheless. I don't know if you ever played the computer game called "Oregon Trail"? That was one of the very first games I ever played where I had to make critical decisions about survival. I loved it and begged to stay after school to play it as much as possible. What I am aiming to do is capture that feeling in an RPG. I want the players to feel genuinely invested in their PC's survival to the point that they utilize both intuition and intellect of their own along with their PC's skills/abilities/etc to stay alive and accomplish the goals they've set out to achieve. There are plenty of excellent adventure games on the market, but I want this game to take players to an unfamiliar version of their own familiar world, causing them to ponder how a few small events could trigger a whole new course of life on our planet. To me, the selling point would be adventuring in a realistic, yet imaginative environment where decision-making is crucial but luck still plays the role of randomizer to keep things exciting. Hope this is a step towards answering your question!

Reid

[BlacklightLion]

I agree that this needs some focus.  While the setting idea is pretty cool, it won't be able to survive on that alone.  Take the problems you mention with animals, nature etc, and consider how rarely these sorts of scenes constitute a meaningful part of actual play.  For these tyo actually appear in play and be significant, there will have to be some other reason for the PC's trekking across the wilderness.  It is those other reasons that will drive the setting, however much attention is invested in the fauna and flora.

You're right, setting alone cannot make this a fun game. I don't plan to create a field guide of North American nature, here. :) What I want to do is provide a setting where if you run out of food, water or other resources, PC's will be able to get what they need from the environment, provided they've invested in those skills. While I feel social interaction will play an extremely critical role in some parts of gameplay, I also want characters to do the best they can against the ultimate killer (or nurturer): Nature. You are right though that just trekking through the wilderness may get old after a while so I'll need to fully develop other options for gameplay and how those are handled. Campaigns focusing on settled areas, cities and the like will need to be developed.

A good book to read, because it is a thoroughly worked up idea, is Gavin Menzies "1421: The Year China Discovered The World".  It has received some criticism but is still very Interesting, and of course if you are not making any claims to reality then this matters little.  And given the dates, this fits your desired scenario perfectly.

I've read up on this book and find it quite intriguing. It puts forth some fascinating theories that could very well assist in this game. Another book I plan to read is 'The Years of Rice and Salt' by Kim Stanley Robinson. It's an alternative history (from what I've read, haven't hit the book just yet) where the Chinese settle the 'New World'. Hopefully it will add some fun to the game's design.

Incidentally, there might be interesting repercussions for world histry that emerge from this.  China famously invented gunpowder but never realy weaponised it.  If Chinese observers among the Aztecs observe Spanish firepower, and develop the technology, the subsequent course of relations between China and the British Empire might be very different indeed.

This is an absolutely brilliant idea you propose. Not only does it fit so perfectly into the setting and help breach the technological gap between Asian and European civilizations as far as firearms are concerned, but it also taps into a current rumor I've heard that the Chinese are training troops in Central America right now. I love it and I hope you don't mind if I use it in the game. Thank you for your comments they've been most helpful!

Reid

[Anders Larsen]

There is two reasons why I ask these question. The first is that I need to have an understanding of your game to give proper feedback. The other is to try to get you to get a focus on what you want with this game. There is always the risk of getting lost in to many setting details, and loosing focus of what really works for the game.

For the main selling point that excites me about this idea and hopefully lights up the eyes of other players is a bit early to say, at this stage. However, I want to hazard a guess nonetheless. I don't know if you ever played the computer game called "Oregon Trail"? That was one of the very first games I ever played where I had to make critical decisions about survival. I loved it and begged to stay after school to play it as much as possible. What I am aiming to do is capture that feeling in an RPG. I want the players to feel genuinely invested in their PC's survival to the point that they utilize both intuition and intellect of their own along with their PC's skills/abilities/etc to stay alive and accomplish the goals they've set out to achieve. There are plenty of excellent adventure games on the market, but I want this game to take players to an unfamiliar version of their own familiar world, causing them to ponder how a few small events could trigger a whole new course of life on our planet. To me, the selling point would be adventuring in a realistic, yet imaginative environment where decision-making is crucial but luck still plays the role of randomizer to keep things exciting. Hope this is a step towards answering your question!

This is a little general. I think that, apart from the alternative history, there is many game that strive to do this, but without too much success. Of course it can be done, but you have to think deeply about what concepts in your game that will enforce the main points of this. I have some question here you can think about:

* How do you get the players to feel strongly for their character?
* In what way will the game keep on challenging the characters survival?
* How do the player (or GM?) set goals for their character?
* How do the environment makes decision-making crucial?

I have some ideas for how this can be achieved, but I want you to think about it first.

- Anders

[MatrixGamer]

Don't forget small pox. The Chinese or Japanese would have vectored that into North America just as much as we Europeans did. The native populations would be dying in droves - especially the more "Civilized" they were (ie coming into the Chinese equivalent of Spanish Missions).

Of course learning more about Chinese history is very important - because if they have Mongols to deal with there would be nothing left over for North America. Chinese culture also did not view expansion in the same way we did in the West. The admiral mentioned above for instance was a Muslim (thus hooking into all that Sinbad sailing tradition).

As a corrolary, look at how fast horses and muskets spread in North American tribes. It will give you an idea about how fast goods/ideas disseminated.

The whole thing looks like an interesting setting - no matter when you place it. I can see Cortez reaching Mexico and actually finding Arabic speakers (like they thought they would!) It would make for an interesting political game. As for adventures, I'm not as sure. A cool setting doesn't automatically lead to cool stories.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

[BlacklightLion]

First off, I want to thank everyone for their interest and comments on this game's development. It's been a great help in structuring my thought process so that I can work on design much more effectively. I'm going to make this post before I reply to the posts I've not yet answered so that you can follow things more easily as I've made some significant changes to the setting, tone and goals of the game.

While I do love the setting (1700's North America being colonized by both Asian & European civilizations), I felt the game was lacking in fun factor if it was just to be a sort of simulation of that alternative historical scenario. While a purely realistic style of play could be fun, for me it's simply not fun enough. With this in mind, I set out to re-think the game with a focus on actual play and here's what I've come up with:

1) The gameworld, while being similar to our Earth has a critical difference: Secret societies work in the shadows of civilizations to influence world events to sway towards their society's agendas. PC's will all be members of one of these groups, having dedicated themselves to the society and leaving behind their lives as "normal Joe's".

2) These secret societies owe allegiance to the ancestral spirits of one of several ancient civilizations long destroyed. These spirits determine the nature of the society, it's goals and codes of conduct. Spirits are not always friendly with one another and so conflict is a constant in the struggle to save humanity or eliminate it entirely. PC's will essentially be obligated to fulfill the goals of their chosen society and live up to its codes of conduct during gameplay. This will heavily affect the decision-making process of PC's (eg: Your code states that you must never strike an enemy from behind, but in the heat of battle a companion will be slain if you refuse to strike from behind). How well they do this will determine if they rise through the ranks of the society and receive the benefits of the spirits which they are allied with.

3) Since the spirits interact with humans, they are able to pass on gifts to those they favor most highly. PC's will be able to gain advantages that help them survive in the gameworld and become heroes who are far superior to the average human being. They will not just carry on mundane adventures, they will establish their group and fulfill the goals of their society, altering the course of events in a (hopefully) ever-increasing way.

4) Unlike magic or the Force, the characters will be interacting with sentient spirits who assist them in order to help them succeed - so long as they are pleased with the actions of the character. It will be important for characters to keep the spirit(s) they work with happy through their actions. As the game progresses they may lose contact with one spirit but gain contact/favor with others. The benefits of the spirits are not permanent so if they act in ways that upset it, they will be back to their normal state of being. The purpose of this way of granting character benefits is to provide a more dynamic approach to having "special abilities" and emphasize roleplaying over simply leveling up and adding more powers.

So these are the additions to the setting which I feel will lead to more interesting and exciting gameplay. The changes will allow for PC's to discover treasures, participate in political intrigue, solve mysteries and focus more on being heroes in a 'New World' where they're working to save humanity. I do have more information on the background but right now these are the most salient points. My primary goal is entertaining gameplay that will keep me (and others) coming back to the table for more adventures, so this is what I'm driving towards. Feel free to let me know how you feel about the changes/additions as well as any further thoughts or comments you may have!

Thanks for taking the time to read this,

Reid

[BlacklightLion]

Hey Anders, sorry I took so long with my reply, but you asked some crucial questions so I needed time to thoroughly consider my answers.

This is a little general. I think that, apart from the alternative history, there is many game that strive to do this, but without too much success. Of course it can be done, but you have to think deeply about what concepts in your game that will enforce the main points of this. I have some question here you can think about:

* How do you get the players to feel strongly for their character?

Players will be playing the role of an average human (for the time period) who is swept up in a worldwide conspiracy where the stakes are the fate of humanity itself. They will have the oppportunity to rise as heroes for their chosen society, make discoveries, create social bonds, participate in political intrigue and ultimately ascend to positions of power within the gameworld. As individuals they will make decisions which affect their character's growth and development, as a group they will strive to establish themselves as key players within the gameworld.

* In what way will the game keep on challenging the characters survival?

In addition to surviving the natural environment and social situations, as characters grow in power they are likely to be noticed by adversaries from rival societies who will take them to task. Beyond this, the situations they encounter will challenge them to sometimes have to decide whether they will appease the spirit(s) by adhering to their code or survive at all costs. Either way, the consequences will color the outcome of their decisions. Also, the technological differences in the gameworld will encourage them to strategize in combat (eg: a musket may have a tremendous knock-down capability but it is slower to fire than a bow, heavier, etc.)

* How do the player (or GM?) set goals for their character?

From the start, PC's will select a society to align themselves with. The codes of these societies will dictate some of the goals for the PC's. As for individual goals of the PC's, they will be determined by the players themselves (based on how they perceive their character) while the GM gives out the goals for the team to accomplish during gameplay (situational goals). If you mean missions or quests, these will be set by the GM primarily and given by leaders of the various societies that the PC's are aligned with (even if they are aligned with different, but not opposing, societies).

* How do the environment makes decision-making crucial?

The natural environment will be fairly realistic in that weather, diseases, flora/fauna and terrain may not always work in the PC's favor. Also, cultural differences will have an impact in terms of PC's needing to find ways to deal with the social environment. While I do not envision the game as being so deadly that any mistep could end the PC's life, I do want it to be challenging so that it's not just a walk through the park.

I appreciate the questions and I hope these answers are helpful in clarifying things!

- Reid

[BlacklightLion]

Don't forget small pox. The Chinese or Japanese would have vectored that into North America just as much as we Europeans did. The native populations would be dying in droves - especially the more "Civilized" they were (ie coming into the Chinese equivalent of Spanish Missions).

Yes, I was thinking about that today, the whole biological warfare going on at the time would be intense. I'm considering connecting the diseases with certain secret societies that help spread them along and lower population levels across the continent. I'm seeing this as something PC's would be able to step in and try to stop, while at the same time attempting to avoid contracting the contagions themselves. Excellent point you make here.

Of course learning more about Chinese history is very important - because if they have Mongols to deal with there would be nothing left over for North America. Chinese culture also did not view expansion in the same way we did in the West. The admiral mentioned above for instance was a Muslim (thus hooking into all that Sinbad sailing tradition).

I definitely agree that understanding the Asian (and European) cultures of the time is going to help me add critical flavor to the setting and gameplay. I may have to re-work how the Mongol/Chinese clashes turned out in order to provide a believable scenario for Chinese expansion to the Americas. In my research of the culture at that time I noticed Confucianism had major influence on Chinese society and yes, they did view expansion much differently than the Europeans. They valued government officals and scholars far more highly than merchants and soldiers, from what I've seen. It seems to me that the Chinese would be expanding to the Americas in order to learn more about the world and spread their culture rather than conquer and institute mercantilism. The cross-cultural situation with Zheng He is definitely interesting, too.

As a corrolary, look at how fast horses and muskets spread in North American tribes. It will give you an idea about how fast goods/ideas disseminated.

That's true! I'm also wondering if the similarities I sense between Native and Asian cultures might actually lead to a different kind of co-existence and mix of cultures than what would be happening on the East Coast.

The whole thing looks like an interesting setting - no matter when you place it. I can see Cortez reaching Mexico and actually finding Arabic speakers (like they thought they would!) It would make for an interesting political game. As for adventures, I'm not as sure. A cool setting doesn't automatically lead to cool stories.

I love the idea you propose about the Spanish encountering Arabic influence among the Aztecs. I'm not sure if I'll be able to cover that far south just yet but I'm definitely going to keep that idea in mind. I agree a setting can't be relied upon for fun gameplay. Hopefully the changes I've made by adding in the conspiracies, societies and spirits will facilitate adventures that are worth playing.

Thanks for your comments, they've been quite valuable!

- Reid

[contracycle]

Yes, I was thinking about that today, the whole biological warfare going on at the time would be intense. I'm considering connecting the diseases with certain secret societies that help spread them along and lower population levels across the continent. I'm seeing this as something PC's would be able to step in and try to stop, while at the same time attempting to avoid contracting the contagions themselves. Excellent point you make here.

I'm inclined to dislike this idea, mainly because it requires such relentless, capital-E Evil.  Europeans didn't have any kind of disease theory at the time, its hard to construct purposefulness and intent out of this IMO.  The rest of the idea has quite an interesting apporoach to widely differing cultures coming into contact with each other at loosely equivalent technical levels; as it did not happen in real life.  For my money this idea is weakened by introducing secret socities and the like as major drivers of the action.

I definitely agree that understanding the Asian (and European) cultures of the time is going to help me add critical flavor to the setting and gameplay. I may have to re-work how the Mongol/Chinese clashes turned out in order to provide a believable scenario for Chinese expansion to the Americas. In my research of the culture at that time I noticed Confucianism had major influence on Chinese society and yes, they did view expansion much differently than the Europeans. They valued government officals and scholars far more highly than merchants and soldiers, from what I've seen.

It seems to me that the Chinese would be expanding to the Americas in order to learn more about the world and spread their culture rather than conquer and institute mercantilism. The cross-cultural situation with Zheng He is definitely interesting, too.

I agree this is going to take some thinking about.  It might be worth considering a land rush type scenario,  inasmuch as China after unification pretty much has all the land worth having in the region.  A thinly populated continent with lots of good land for the taking might trigger something like the rush to colonise the west.  Come to think of it, you might have to rejig the dates, but conceivably you could end up with a Chinese government-in-exile in America having fled the Mongols.  And as we know from Taiwain, there can only be one China.

That's true! I'm also wondering if the similarities I sense between Native and Asian cultures might actually lead to a different kind of co-existence and mix of cultures than what would be happening on the East Coast.

I don't know if that would be a viable reason.  While I think you are right about the similarities (interestingly a Shang dynast says he's going to build the biggest mound there is, and in the US there are so-called "mound-builder" sites, frex) I would also think Chinese culture is so far from the common roots by this point that native Americans will not be seen as anything other than barbarians, like all other non-Chinese people.  However, China also made efforts to civilise its surrounding barbarians so they could form proper states and be negotiated with; so an active colonial project might still have quite a different character.