[Channeling] Opposed extended rolls

[Brian_W]

(First post, so bear with me...)
First of all, for anyone who wants more information than i'm giving, full info on my game (as it exists) can be found at http://shadowedmagi.proboards55.com/index.cgi?board=channeldev. It's very, very unordered, but anything i know is up there.

Overview for those not interested in digging through a forum:
Channeling is an RPG with a fantasy setting similar to standard D&D, but with a twist. It's a low magic world, with very few people have any mystical powers. Those who do gain it through a skill called "Channeling". What it is is that they bind themselves to some sort of otherworldy creature (demon, elemental, spirit, something...) and draw power from it. The catch is, it doesn't like it.

Right now the mechanic i want input on is fairly basic to the game, and not much more is needed to understand it. To cast spells or use supernatural abilities, the player must roll opposed checks against the demon. They each have 3 derived stats for casting which will range from -5 to +5 (the use of which isn't fully solidified yet, so i can't go into too much detail) but to cast a spell, the player rolls a d10 and adds the applicable stat. The DM rolls a d10 for the creature, and adds his stat. The total is the demon's result subtracted from the player's result. This gives a number which may be positive if the player rolled better, or negative if the demon did. The two would continue to roll each round, until the total adds up to either positive number (determined by the difficulty of the spell), which would result in successful casting, or a negative number (also dependant on the spell), representing a failure. giving modifiers range from -5 to +5 (not including magical/equipment bonus, etc...) does a d10 seem like the right die? d20 seems like the die would overshadow the bonus, but i do want some degree of luck in it. Also, will the mechanic work overall? Am i horrible at explaining things?

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya Brian!

Welcome to the Forge!  I'm glad you brought your game here for some feedback.  There's a little exercise I like to put game designs through just to help the authors think about them and to help the readers better analyze them.  Do you think you could answer the following three questions for me about your game:

1)  What is your game about?

2)  What are the characters suposed to do?

3)  How do the players play the game?

Peace,

-Troy

[Brian_W]

Sure, i think i can handle a few questions...

1)  What is your game about?
The game is about a group of people (the players) who all share the relativly rare skill of channeling magic. In the world, Channelers are often feared and hunted, because of their rarity and supernatural way of working.

2)  What are the characters suposed to do?
The end goal of the game is determined by the players and/or GM, but it almost always involves their ability to channel. They could choose to use the power to help people, get money, hurt people they don't like, or just try to hide it. Or maybe they could hire themselves out to hunt other channelers...

3)  How do the players play the game?
The mechanics are primarily d20, but the character stats and abilities are completely different (the stats are much closer to a White Wolf style) and a completely different skill and spell system. The actual playing of the game would be similar to d20, just a simple adventure story that will probably be best suited for quasi-RP hack and slash campaigns, but hopefully allow real RP as well.

If i didn't answer those very well, i apologize, tell me what i did wrong, and i'll try to rephrase it

[TroyLovesRPG]

Hello,

Binding demons and mystical forces is fun! I've not seen many systems that handle the story to my satisfaction. I think this is due to the focus on the character as a closed system. You're proposing an interaction on an internal level that goes beyond mere physical actions. That you want it to be like a normal d20 game immediately disinterests me. Tell a story about how the characters come to be channelers, grow up and harness forces. From my experience, if you work on mechanics at this moment you'll bind yourself (no pun intended) to arbitrary rules without first exploring what you want your game to be.

As you specify how channeling works in your game, it may be necessary to redefine your universe; therefore, it will not look like the d20 or White Wolf universes. Begin at the end and work your way to the details. It will be an easier task to derive the variables and components from the total picture instead of forcing your rules to tell the story. What if any living creature can be tapped for their power? What if the channeler must forfeit some basic essence to take the demon's force? What if the power is not a basic energy but a transference of skill, knowledge and physical abilities? What if there is an ultimate price for channeling (losing soul, converting to evil, etc?)

Because of the consequences of channeling there may be an opportunity to play and enjoy other types of characters:
Channelers use the powers of the demons.
Inquisitors hunt channelers, judge them and dispatch them.
Restorers balance the chaos unleashed by the channeling and help the victims (even demons) regain their powers.
Demon Hunters kill the demons to eliminate the channeling potential.
Mediators work with demons and channelers to arrive at a mutually beneficial agreement. Its possible that demons can gain useful experience by lending their powers to the channelers.
Librarians have immense knowledge in channeling--and other arcane lore--yet do not possess the ability to bind demons. They can hire channelers to do their bidding and skirt personal harm.
Exorcists help channelers or the "gifted" eliminate possession due to a failed channel or by renegade demons.

If the channeling action becomes the focal point of the game then it sounds exciting. Offer different avenues of channeling. Contrast the different methods of channeling throughout the ages and why it was even considered. You have many questions to answer before looking at mechanics.

Mechanics have been done, overdone, redone and done some more. Its actually unimportant to come up with a unique, clever way of doing three basic things that all games must have: identify a statistic that has an analog effect in the story, a way to modify its value and a way to calculate probabilities. Telling the story deserves your creativity; the rest of the game will work itself. Focus on the mechanics and gamers may say "it's D&D but uses d10 instead of d20."

Good luck!

Troy

[Brian_W]

Binding demons and mystical forces is fun! I've not seen many systems that handle the story to my satisfaction. I think this is due to the focus on the character as a closed system. You're proposing an interaction on an internal level that goes beyond mere physical actions. That you want it to be like a normal d20 game immediately disinterests me. Tell a story about how the characters come to be channelers, grow up and harness forces. From my experience, if you work on mechanics at this moment you'll bind yourself (no pun intended) to arbitrary rules without first exploring what you want your game to be.

I don't want it to be exactly like a d20 game, but that is what i'm currently using as an influence for the base mechanics.

As you specify how channeling works in your game, it may be necessary to redefine your universe; therefore, it will not look like the d20 or White Wolf universes. Begin at the end and work your way to the details. It will be an easier task to derive the variables and components from the total picture instead of forcing your rules to tell the story. What if any living creature can be tapped for their power? What if the channeler must forfeit some basic essence to take the demon's force? What if the power is not a basic energy but a transference of skill, knowledge and physical abilities? What if there is an ultimate price for channeling (losing soul, converting to evil, etc?)

The world won't look like d20 or White Wolf, i referenced more as a technology level / idea level example. Perhaps a better way to describe the setting i had in mind would be more like a semi-realistic world, maybe even based on a real middle age-ish culture (tossed around the idea of a norse inspired setting... the movie The 13th Warrior has been suggested to me), along with a fear of supernatural things (witches in old America, Salem Witch Trials kind of thoughts) where the thing feared is real, just misunderstood.
The idea of the penalty to channeling is something i had loosely figured out, but not figured out exactly what yet. The part about tapping any living creature is a good one, and opens up some interesting ideas...  i will have to think about that more.

The different play styles seems good, and would give a lot of options of how you want to run the game (i.e. want hack and slash? Demon Hunters, research? Librarians, RP? Restorers...) The intent of the game involved Channeling being the only source of supernatural abilities, so that would restrict non-channelers slightly, but one possibility is to have different beings to channel (Spirits, Ghosts, Demons, Elementals...) and have that change the nature of the abilities. Demon Channelers might be primarily evil, specializing in subversive but not directly damaging strategies (no fireballs, but curses and such) whereas a player channeling an Elemental would have abilities tied to the element. I would almost suggest 'good' channelers where the spirit is voluntarily helping, but a large part of the thoughts i wanted was the conflict between the player and the entity.

Mechanics have been done, overdone, redone and done some more. Its actually unimportant to come up with a unique, clever way of doing three basic things that all games must have: identify a statistic that has an analog effect in the story, a way to modify its value and a way to calculate probabilities. Telling the story deserves your creativity; the rest of the game will work itself. Focus on the mechanics and gamers may say "it's D&D but uses d10 instead of d20."

I am trying to avoid that too... while i am thinking up mechanics, they follow the story... if i have a mechanic set up, and get an idea for the setting that would affect that mechanic, i'll change the mechanic so i can have the setting and ideas i want.

[Anders Larsen]

I like to know more about what you want with this game.

What is the important concepts and conflicts in this setting? And how do you imagine these could be supported in the rules?

What type of stories are typical told in this game?

You mention that some people that can channel try to hide it. Is it because other people are afraid of these powers?

- Anders

[Brian_W]

The concept of the setting is a world that has, to most people, about as much magic as our world. Like our world, they have stories of people who can do magic, by drawing the power from another source. Unlike our world, these stories are true, if not widely believed. The stories are told with fear, and providing that thing that mothers use to scare their children. Channelers are real, and as you might guess, when they are discovered, they are not well liked. That is both the concept, as well as the reason many try to hide it, or at least don't show off.
The conflicts are between the party and normal inhabitants, as well as other channelers if they become hunters/hunted. In addition, there is also the conflict between each character and any creature(s) they may have bound to them.
I'm not sure how the rules support the conflicts with other people, besides having rules for combat and social encounters. As for the conflict with the creature, for one thing they will have to roll/decide conflicts with the creature to manage to draw the power needed for abilities. Also, supernatural abilities will run off of an energy pool, of sorts. Unlike most mana/mp/whatever based games, technically they could use powers forever... but to use the power, they have to let the creature have a little more freedom each time... when the pool is empty, the creature is free to do what he/she/it wants.
Typical stories could be anything from perhaps trying to not use their powers, even when there is great need, or else simply trying to gain strength through practice, or money through bounty hunting.

[Anders Larsen]

First thing: I will not really be able to answer the question in your initial post. Rule details like that have to be playtested. But I can try to give you some advise.

Like TroyLovesRPG is saying, a system that is similar to the d20 system, can be too much of a baggage to carry around, and you risk it is pulling you off track.

When you describe your game it seems to be a occult horror game with some elements of action. I can not see that a concept of levels will fit the feeling of this game. You actually have some good ideas of what you want with the game, and you should try to ask yourself if the system you have enforce these ideas.

You should note that I do not really know your system, and I am only vaguely familiar with the d20 system. But from what I can see, your setting concept go in one direction, and the system in an other. And when things like this happen, the players will follow the system, and not really go into the setting. And that is properly not what you want.

You may not agree with me. But if you want me to go deeper into this then just ask.

- Anders

[Brian_W]

Ah... alright... i see part of the problem... i agree, i don't want a level based system either. the only part of d20 i was planning on taking was using a d20 for standard roles as opposed to dice pools. This, too, is up for debate as well, but the only systems i know really well are d20, White Wolf, and (a little) BESM.

And thank you for responding to the question... in retrospect, your right... oh well.

[Brian_W]

Actually, with my previous question answered/deflected, perhaps i can lead into another one... for my game, of which the only things i can say for sure is that there will be a fair amount of conflict resolution... is there a better way to do this than rolling a d20? any suggestions?

[Anders Larsen]

I feel that you are trying to do this backward. You have to start with the important concepts that you want in your game, and make mechanics for these. After that you can begin to make some glue mechanic that can bind this together. The glue mechanic should (in my opinion) be as simple as possible.

When you are talking about what kind of die to use, you are talking about the glue mechanic. And it is hard to say anything about the glue mechanic, without knowing the mechanics for the concepts. And mostly the glue mechanic is just something you have to choose.

Lets look at you concepts, and your mechanics for these.

Concept: The characters will bind them self to an otherworldly creature.
Mechanic: Maybe they do with a test of will against will?

Concept: The character risk the creature takes over, if they channel to much.
Mechanic: When the energy reach zero the creature takes over.

Concept: The channellers are feared because of their power.
Mechanic: Some kind of renown indicator, that increases when the character uses his powers in public? An high renown can both be good and bad.

Concept: Some channellers are hunters and some are hunted.
Mechanic: What makes some hunters and some hunted?


These are only examples, you can properly get some better ideas of how to handle these concepts. And there should be some more concepts for other thing the character can do in your game. There can also be concepts for how the players and gamemaster interact.

When you come to the glue mechanic, my opinion is that it should be as simple as possible, as long as it do what it need to do.

A good simple die mechanic is to roll under a skill or stat value to get a success. ex if you use d20, then values lies between 1 and 20. If the roll is below the value it is a success, if it is over it is a failure. This mechanic is fast and does not need any calculations.

But as I said, it is too early to think about this.

- Anders

[TroyLovesRPG]

Hello Brian,

I'm becoming more interested in this because of the metaphysical possibilities it creates. Beyond the channeling aspect, your game could definitely have more depth concerning the way energy, power and the universe behaves with regards to living beings. I can see opportunities to define a complete system of how power is created, channeled, utilized and destroyed. All living beings could have an inherent power that is based on astrology, destiny, genetics, etc. There may be aspects of that being which determine boundaries and paths leading to a more powerful state. Most beings never fulfill their potential and live normal lives, while those that pursue knowledge (and the occult) can go beyond the norm. Part of this path may not just involve taking power, but also giving and lending it. Power becomes a new currency in the metaphysical universe. Demons, angels, monsters, gods and savvy humans have ways of using the world in a way that most people are completely unaware. Things happen in the world and its not just due to economy and politics. True power is at hand.

Therefore, using the idea of pools makes sense. Each creature may have an affinity for one power or another. The pools can determine what the channeler can do, the world effects and the types of creatures needed for his power. The skills to use those pools are important, too. Just as there are schools of magic in some games, you could have techniques to sense, control, collect, store and imbue the power. Simple effects may require one pool and one technique. Example: psychics need a temporal pool and sense technique; healers need a bio pool with sense and control. Complicated designs require multiple pools and multiple technique. Example: mechanics require lore and substance pools with collect, control and imbue techniques. The combinations determine the channeler's potential.

The pools are represented by dice. Lots of dice. Each die in a pool represents a chunk of power gained in some fashion. So, a mechanic's lore pool may have a d4, d4, d6, d8 and d12 and the substance pool is d6, d10, d12 and d20. You could also assign certain dice to certain pool types. When power is used, the player rolls a die from each pool and adds the appropriate technique level. The results are compared to target numbers or opposed rolls. The player chooses the die to roll and that determines how much power the character expends. Rolling a one on any die lets you use the die, but it is permanently lost; rolling the highest number on the die lets you roll the die again (your open extended roll) or put the die back into your pool. Other rolled dice are put aside and can be active once the character rests and recuperates. After a number of hours equal to the die type, the character gains the power; after 4 hours one d4 is regained, after 8 hours one d8 is gained, etc.

Channeling is the juicy part. Power is required by the being to live and it isn't reliquished lightly. Taking bio from a friendly dog is easy. He plays fetch and brings back the stick. The channeler attempts to take the power, rolls a d6+collect(4) and gets 8. The dog rolls a d4 and no bonus due to his ignorant state. He rolls a 4 (gets to roll again) +3 for a total of 7. The channeler barely pulls the energy and the dog lies there whimpering. The channeler adds the d4 to his bio pool.

Collecting from a demon is much harder. This is where bargaining happens. The channeler takes some power and agrees to perform a task--bound by oath. The demon stands out in a crowd and humans can go anywhere; therefore, the channeler chooses to poison the ambassador for a d12 of substance from the demon. If the channeler fails the task or renegs, the demon will attempt to collect the power. Breaking an oath puts you at a disadvantage and most likely the demon will take back the d12 and much more.

The act of collecting power by force or breaking an oath always creates discord between the two beings. Giving power forms a neutral bond when an oath is part of the exchange. Giving power willingly forms an amiable bond. These bonds are intangible and ever present. Years after the exchange, the two opponents are immediately aware of each other when they meet.

Beings can recover used power by resting--one die pip per hour. Power that is freely given or lost must be replaced through collection or by disciplined action. Weeks of exercise and diet returns bio; research returns lore; work and productivity returns substance; planning and analysis returns temporal; etc. Each week recovers one pip of a die: 4 weeks of excercise returns a d4. Power can be regained up to your original values in this way.

You can create more power, but that take months instead of weeks, and you must dedicate your life to the rituals/dogma prescribed for that type of power. Extraordinary people stumble upon this and have tremendous power after years of experience, yet they are unaware of the occult aspect of it. So, they are powerful in the mundane world and have no clue what their thru potential is.

Its a beautiful day and I'm going outside.

Troy

[Brian_W]

Wow...
Alright, i think i'm gonna need to do some thinking... i had thought i had most of the game at least visualized (however vague some parts were) but your ideas.... well, as i said, i need to rethink some things.... Mind if i use your ideas, Troy? Too good to ignore...

[TroyLovesRPG]

Hey Brian,

Please, use all the ideas you want. Also, tell us more about your game, the story of the characters and how channeling works. Write a short story and then fill in the mechanics of the game. You'll be surprised at how quickly your thoughts will focus on the important aspects. I agree with Anders in how you can procede with development. I tend to focus on story and the mechanics come later (or not at all). Your game requires great attention to the mechanics details during the development process; otherwise, you will have great imbalances due to loopholes if your rules aren't 100% fireproof.

I'm specifically using the dice pool mechanics in my game. The dice are an easy way to gauge power without constantly looking at numbers on a character sheet. They can be moved around easily, used as indicators on the game board and it adds a tangible sensation to play. Because dice come in so many colors and sizes, I find them to be a good way to distinguish power types and purposes. In my game, dice are distributed at the beginning of a session using the numbers on the character sheet. Players can focus on the game and get a feel for what they need to do by just looking at the dice in play. When the session ends, players record their current pool totals. I visualize a communal dice "bank" and players use that during the game sessions. Dice move around during the game like poker chips and have purpose, too.

That made me think of using lots of dice in your game. I don't know how quickly you want play to occur and if its slow then dice pools may not be suitable. If you are looking for high action and power zapping back and forth, then the dice pools could work.

Time to build window treatments.

Troy

[Brian_W]

That i can do, and will... tomorrow... after sleep, and i figure out how the new stuff is gonna work a bit better...
On another note, is it ok to continue in this thread? Or should i start a new one? the title is rather specific, and no longer even applicable to the game...