Good & Evil?

[btrc]

I've got a gameworld in playtest at the moment with a modern horror theme (yes, another modern horror game). Anyway, the backdrop includes Good and Evil, with capital G and E. There can be no compromise between the two, each seeks to fill the universe to the absolute exclusion of the other, and in their purest form, each is intolerant of what I guess we can call 'imperfection' in adherence to their ideal or lack thereof.

My question, or really a call for opinions, is:

"What is Good, and what is Evil?" And beyond that, is there a difference between "Good" and "good", and likewise "Evil" and "evil"?

After all, what can be beneficial for one person could be harmful to another. The good for the many could be evil for the one, and vice versa.

Right now I have expressed a very Western, quasi-Biblical notion of the concepts in the gameworld, though there is no single entity in the gameworld embodying either concept, and the gameworld is not based on a Christian motif or hierarchy of beings. However, Good can be loosely represented by the Seven Cardinal Virtues and Evil by the Seven Deadly Sins. Adventurers will represent a flawed form of Good, i.e. a mix of Good and Evil, with tendency to support Good (which is why they're PC's).

I'm looking for alternate viewpoints on what the concepts Good and Evil represent. Order/Chaos, Light/Dark, Western vs. Eastern concepts, etc.

Greg Porter
BTRC

[Bill_White]

Don't forget Life/Death.  You could go back and read Zelazny's Creatures of Light and Darkness for a vision of how that antinomy can be handled.  It's a pretty cool read in any event, although the "sides" are not particularly different in their ways of doing business.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  My analysis of the Force leads me to beleive that the sole division of the light side/dark side is "Who gains by your words or actions?" Killing is not a sin with the Force, so the moral dilemna is who gains...

[Paul Strack]

My favorite polarity of good vs. evil is selflessness vs. selfishness. Good is putting the needs of other before yourself, and evil is putting your own needs before others. I find this works nicely, because it selflessness is something that most moral systems argue for in some form or another, and is something you can define fairly objectively.

It is also nice from a game perspective, because it is an impossibly high standard to always be selfless. After all, if you always put the needs of others above yourself, you'd starve to death.

[Thunder_God]

My favorite polarity of good vs. evil is selflessness vs. selfishness. Good is putting the needs of other before yourself, and evil is putting your own needs before others. I find this works nicely, because it selflessness is something that most moral systems argue for in some form or another, and is something you can define fairly objectively.

It is also nice from a game perspective, because it is an impossibly high standard to always be selfless. After all, if you always put the needs of others above yourself, you'd starve to death.

I think it is impossible to really define. Why do people volunteer to help others? To feel better about themselves.
Why do they do nice things? To have others think better of them, often.

These causes may not be conscious, but they are there.

[Paul Strack]

My favorite polarity of good vs. evil is selflessness vs. selfishness. Good is putting the needs of other before yourself, and evil is putting your own needs before others. I find this works nicely, because it selflessness is something that most moral systems argue for in some form or another, and is something you can define fairly objectively.

I think it is impossible to really define. Why do people volunteer to help others? To feel better about themselves.
Why do they do nice things? To have others think better of them, often.

These causes may not be conscious, but they are there.

From an absolute philosophical perspective, I would agree with you. From a game standpoint, I think it still works. Characters that are motivated primarily by self-gain are evil. Characters that are motivated to help others are good.

[Thunder_God]

You're correct of course. I just live this way, and state it often, so had to note it ;)

[Paul Strack]

The reason why I like selflessness vs. selfishness as a standard for a game like this is that, from a practical perspective, it is a ridiculous standard. It is based entirely on motivation, and no one really say what anyone's motivation really is, even for themselves.

From the perspective of an omniscient force for good, though, it would be perfectly reasonable. Help others, for the right reasons, and you are good. Help yourself instead of helping others and you are bad. It immediately puts the heroes in a moral quandry. They are almost forced to break the rules in order to be effective. And if the side for evil is sufficiently awful (satanic baby-eaters), the heroes will be motivated to do so.

The heroes can't win, which ideal fodder for horror.

[JakeVanDam]

Generally the distinction between lowercase and uppercase is made based on usage. Are you comparing a thing to a value, or are you reffereing to the value itself.

Good and Evil are philosophical concepts. The easiest way, in my opinion, to find differing distinctions between the two would be to look into various philosophys. Your ideas so far suggest you're already at least familiar enough with the Christian distinctions to use it as a concept. I'd also look into Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Secular Humanism, and Hedonism. Just as a disclaimer, I'm not making any suggestions on religious practice, only suggesting a starting point for possible research on game concepts.

[Ben Lehman]

Hey, Greg --

A lot of societies define good and evil based on place in the social order.

Consider: High Caste versus Low Caste, Inside of Society versus Outside of Society, Banditry versus Law, Industry versus Laziness, Tradition versus Innovation, Proper Action versus Scheming.

Also common is Magic versus Reason.

yrs--
--Ben

[Tommi Brander]

The good and evil are in the game whatever you want them to be. Make them be whatever is most suitable for the game.

If you want inspiration, take a look at some schoolbook about ethics. That should give some ideas.

[MatrixGamer]

I'm looking for alternate viewpoints on what the concepts Good and Evil represent. Order/Chaos, Light/Dark, Western vs. Eastern concepts, etc.

Greg

An alternate view that I think is interesting - non-western - but still pretty understandable, is West African Paganism. You can find information on it by looking up Voodoo, Santa Ria or just West African Paganism. Good and evil are very important in this tradition.

Chris Engle

[Clyde L. Rhoer]

Hi Greg,

I may be missing it, but I'm a bit lost. Is the intention of your game to examine what Good and Evil is, or are you trying to predefine it?

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

good (gʊd)

adj., bet·ter (bĕt'ər), best (bĕst).
Being positive or desirable in nature; not bad or poor: a good experience; good news from the hospital.
Having the qualities that are desirable or distinguishing in a particular thing: a good exterior paint; a good joke.
Serving the desired purpose or end; suitable: Is this a good dress for the party?
Not spoiled or ruined: The milk is still good.
In excellent condition; sound: a good tooth.
Superior to the average; satisfactory: a good student.
Used formerly to refer to the U.S. Government grade of meat higher than standard and lower than choice.
Of high quality: good books.
Discriminating: good taste.
Worthy of respect; honorable: ruined the family's good name.
Attractive; handsome: good looks.
Beneficial to health; salutary: a good night's rest.
Competent; skilled: a good machinist.
Complete; thorough: a good workout.
Reliable; sure: a good investment.
Valid or true: a good reason.
Genuine; real: a good dollar bill.
In effect; operative: a warranty good for two years; a driver's license that is still good.
Able to continue in a specified activity: I'm good for another round of golf.
Able to pay or contribute: Is she good for the money that you lent her?
Able to elicit a specified reaction: He is always good for a laugh.
Ample; substantial: a good income.
Bountiful: a good table.
Full: It is a good mile from here.
Pleasant; enjoyable: had a good time at the party.
Propitious; favorable: good weather; a good omen.
Of moral excellence; upright: a good person.
Benevolent; kind: a good soul; a good heart.
Loyal; staunch: a good Republican.
Well-behaved; obedient: a good child.
Socially correct; proper: good manners.
Sports.
Landing within bounds or within a particular area of a court and therefore in play: The first serve was wide, but the second was good.
Passing between the uprights of the goal and therefore scoring, as a field goal in football.
Used to form exclamatory phrases expressing surprise or dismay: Good heavens! Good grief!

n.
Something that is good.
A good, valuable, or useful part or aspect.
Welfare; benefit: for the common good.
Goodness; virtue: There is much good to be found in people.
goods
Commodities; wares: frozen goods.
Portable personal property.
(used with a sing. or pl. verb) Fabric; material.
goods Slang. Incriminating information or evidence: tried to get the goods on the crook.

e·vil (ē'vəl)

adj., e·vil·er, e·vil·est.
Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

n.
The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
An evil force, power, or personification.
Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.
This is just my (somewhat smartass) way of asking how, in the name of the Fickle God of Semantics, you expect to resolve the most fundamental (meta)ethical question that faces not only humanity but, I suspect, all sapients? Here on The Forge? Sure, we do alright with game theory and its sematics... but let's be honest; is this truly a valid question vis a vis game design?

I think the best you can hope for is "Good is A and Evil is Not A" and then look at ways in which rules sytems, in general, can "hook into" that arbitrary metaethics. Such a debate could be very germane to The Forge, in that you could go a long way towards determing how ethics and morals can become/be reflected in game elements--a far, far more interesting debate, frankly. Just a suggestion.

If this poll is "game theory" then any subject is valid for any board at The Forge (I am surprised it's lasted 2 hours without moderation).

Sorry to be the Thread Thug;
David

[Thunder_God]

I think Predefine, as the game is a fight between the two. Can't speak for him though.