Death Stakes

[Bankuei]

Callan,

It's not about suffering- it's a game about buy-in.  If you sell a good enough death scene, the GM accepts and you win.  Otherwise, the GM has to come up with a good enough not-death scene so that everyone still wants to play.

Instead of simply "oops, your character's dead, go sit in the corner", what's at stake of the game is that death means the game is over OR, the GM being lame means the game is over.  In other words- everyone has to step up or everyone "sits in the corner" (or in reality- goes and does something else fun instead).

And, since the game is explicitly about characters dying, why would you get deeply invested?

Chris

[Ben Morgan]

The first rule of Death Stakes is that you do not talk about Death Stakes.

The second rule of Death Stakes is that you do not talk about Death Stakes.

Seriously, it's something that has to be witnessed first-hand to be truly understood.

-- Ben

[Thunder_God]

It's a game to encourage Narration and Competition.

In it you have to be able to come up with a good narration, something appropriate and intriguing.
Then the other side tries to one-up you!

Great before playing CSI games(My new term, Competitive Story Interaction Games!) or things like Baron Munchmausen, on drugs!

[TonyLB]

It's a game to encourage Narration and Competition.

Is that a (very short) playtest report?  Or is it just a theory?

'cuz dude, if you think it's that ... play it and find out.  I think you're wrong, but evidence is key.

[Thunder_God]

Thought. I'll try and playtest it next week, and bugger all if I won't post a blow-by-blow playtest report!

[Callan S.]

Callan,

It's not about suffering- it's a game about buy-in.  If you sell a good enough death scene, the GM accepts and you win.  Otherwise, the GM has to come up with a good enough not-death scene so that everyone still wants to play.

Instead of simply "oops, your character's dead, go sit in the corner", what's at stake of the game is that death means the game is over OR, the GM being lame means the game is over.  In other words- everyone has to step up or everyone "sits in the corner" (or in reality- goes and does something else fun instead).

I don't buy it. The moment where the GM capitulates or generates a new scene...there's nothing to be seen there, that you can celebrate a victory over. It's like throwing a ball into a big black room full of moving objects and you can't see into the room...but the idea is that your supposed to celebrate if the ball comes bouncing back out to you after the throw. If the ball bounces back, it's a real non moment...shit happened, big deal.

That's why I think that, if you've decided to continue playing at all, you must see something in the suffering element. Because there isn't anything else.

And, since the game is explicitly about characters dying, why would you get deeply invested?

I don't see any other point to the game except some deep investment. So If I've chosen to play, I must have also chosen to get deeply invested.

I know the game is supposed to demonstrate GM fiat. But you wont experience the lesson unless you invest into the game and get your personal investment pushed around by fiat.

I'm wondering if people are seeing it as a lesson and avoiding making that investment - going for satire, humour (gay violence), or even saying it's some sort of step on up activity. IMO, it isn't...you play it to get into it then get slapped around. You've asked me why I'd get invested, why I'd put my hand in the flame. It's to find out exactly how it burns. I wont get that if I joke around with my hand near it or trying to make a game of dodging the flame with my hand.

Tony: Take this post as an account of initial preconceptions taken into the game before playing. I should have an actual account soon.

[Bankuei]

Callan,

Read my reply again- it's not winning or losing, it's not victory that's the point- it's buy-in.  The one-ups-manship is based on impressing each other.  That's where the engagement happens (or the game ends).  I don't see how it necessarily translates to masochism, since nothing says that characters dying has to be anything of the sort of painful.

Chris

[Callan S.]

Chris,

Okay, reread it and I think that constitutes a third way the game could go in addition to the two I listed previously. Though I wish you wouldn't use the words 'step up' or 'win', as it's confusing. I've never won chess by impressing the other person, for example.

I think it can translate to masochism, if that 'impress the GM' doesn't interest the player.

[Callan S.]

Attempted actual play

I attempted to play it with my six year old son, using star wars as the base. This didn't work out well...he just started to repeat the 'deaths' that happened in star wars, like C3PO being blown up or Han getting frozen. He got confused by my changing things to 'Actually, they are alive'. Although on greater reflection, it shows the technique those movies and many more use...'Oh no, he's dead/frozen in carbonite...oh thank god, he's alive, but he's above a 'digest you for a thousand years' worm pit.

I described it to my partner. She wasn't interested in playing, but could see the 'oh thank god their alive' angle. Though she persisted that there should be a 'There's a quest they can do'. When I pushed for who 'they are', she meant the player...something they could do to bring themselves out of it.

Although I wish conversations like tha were recorded...it's hard to both grasp the concepts involved and mentally record a log of the conversation.

[TonyLB]

This didn't work out well...he just started to repeat the 'deaths' that happened in star wars, like C3PO being blown up or Han getting frozen.

Okay.  You say it didn't work out well.  How so?

What you're describing ("And then C-3PO gets blown into tiny little bits ... he's dead!"  "Aaaactually, Chewbacca finds the pieces in the garbage and puts them back together and he's fine") seems like standard game-play to me.  Do you feel that it worked out poorly because you were expecting something different than that?  Or was it because of your son's confusion when you diverged from canon?  Or something else?

[Callan S.]

What you're describing ("And then C-3PO gets blown into tiny little bits ... he's dead!"  "Aaaactually, Chewbacca finds the pieces in the garbage and puts them back together and he's fine") seems like standard game-play to me.  Do you feel that it worked out poorly because you were expecting something different than that?  Or was it because of your son's confusion when you diverged from canon?  Or something else?

Diversion from cannon...he took it more that I was asking what happened in the movie. Then again, who doesn't draw from what happens in the movies/various media, to put together what happens. So perhaps it's valid.

I actually described some of the set up in return of the jedi, where C3PO is a slave of jabba the hut along with just about everyone else. I think my son refered to what happens to C3PO in the empire strikes back and added that. There was this notably long, confused face when I 'well actually'ed a sandworm that came up out of the ground and ate the guy who would have blasted C3PO, and is now menacing everyone else. His responce was more along the lines of 'eh, that's not what happened...I don't really want to agree with that' rather than 'eh, that's not what I wanted to happen!'.

Late side note: He's six years old...poor, experimented on son! :(

Would it be useful to start up a quick PBP somewhere (I have a easy place in mind), so we can get more results. Would that work out, do you think?

[TonyLB]

Beat you to it, I'm afraid.  Though I'd certainly be thrilled if people want to set up a second one.

[Callan S.]

Having read that, do any of the players actually say 'Bond is dead' at the end of their narration?

[Ron Edwards]

Hey guys,

This thread is starting to fragment. Let's focus it or call it done.

Best,
Ron

[TonyLB]

Sounds good.  If I understand the new forum structure correctly, folks who intend to playtest the game in particular venues, or who have actual playtesting results to post, should do it in their own threads.