[Middle Earth] choice of system

[Blake Hutchins]

Joel,

Interesting.  The prep to play piece mirrors some thoughts I've had regarding getting a group and a game started, though I'm not considering a Middle-Earth game.  Setting up to play - if actual prep and planning, and not just mooning about "someday" -- seems relevant to this forum IMO.  Just to be clear, I'm in the mooning stage.  Your questions indicate you're in an actual prep phase.  (That might be a cool additional forum, albeit risky - "Actual Prep.")

Anyway, my picks for your consideration:

TSoY: Cultural stuff, Keys and Secrets, all go right to Middle Earth.  You might consider swapping the name of the Instinct pool to "Presence" as that term evokes both charisma and reaction time as rendered in Tolkien's work.  Change the refresh requirements to reflect Tolkien-consistent behavior - good food, music, storytelling, conversation, a pipe, hanging around Elves or in Rivendell...that sort of thing.

FATE: Has all the elements of scaling your conflicts, same as with TSoY or Heroquest, and the Aspects essentially function as TSoY Keys.  Plus it's free.

Heroquest: Relationships, multiple forms of magic.  Race and lineage keywords like "Line of Numenor" and so forth would map well to Middle Earth.

Essentially, these three should work really well for the conflict scaling, player empowerment model you're espousing.  For a grittier game, you could try Burning Wheel, which has the best rendition of Middle Earth Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs I've ever seen.  The Grief stat for Elves, for example, absolutely rocks.

Best,

Blake

[Joel P. Shempert]

Hello, Silmenume,

No prob on misinterpreting, I'd say it's mostlymy fault for not being clear. I think the motive for avoiding jargon is twofold, 1) I'm afraid that if I can't put it in lay terms, I don't really understand it, and 2) I'm trying to find a way to articulate all these preferences to my potential play group, who have largely not experienced the Forge and who probablyu couldn't be bothered to read up on the Theory if you paid them. So If I can't go to them and say, "OK, here's the game I'd like to do, and I'd like to get this out of it, then it's all a losing endeavor.

Seeing my statements all lined up in a row like that, I can see why it looks pretty Simmy. But then, I have to wonder, how else would I set up a Middle Earth game, regardless of CA? I simply did my homework and come up with a cool time and place which I thought would be a great setting for a story, with lots of GM and player latitude. Is thatnecessarily Sim? I mean, if we're agreeing to play in Middle Earth in the first place, then obviously we're setting a play criteria that the story produced be "like Middle Earth," whatever we may decide that entails. I think a fundamental implied question underlying this entire thread is: "Can one game in a Narrativist fashion in a setting as predefined as Middle Earth, or will it end up being Sim with all the potentially premis-addressing themes as Color?"

(An aside about the use of "causality". . .I know it's a Sim buzzword and I didn;t mean to mislead with it. However, just as all CAs float on Exploration, all RPGs involve causality. Causality says, "When I do this, it makes this happen." Support of different CAs as I see it, involves what sorts of causality exist; i.e. what kinds of things are causally linked in the game. I was referring to a sort of "Narr causality," meaning causal mechanics specifically geared to facilitate the address of Premise. Make sense?)

So, let me clarify this whole tangled knot. My grasp of the Theory may not be perfect, but I do know that I want to Address Premise in my games, in the sense used by Ron Edwards and others inreference to Lajos Egri. I don't want theme to just be Color. The best description of this process that I have found is here, and is the text that really made the lights come on for me (thank you, Vincent). If my description of play goals sounds more Sim, that's probably because A) I don't know how to "do" Premise well enough, or B) I'm not articulating myself precisely enough. Or both.

I recognize from your posts that I tend to refer, however veiled, to Sim play as implicitly negative, as in "bad." I apologize. I don't mean to, and I don't mean to belittle a play style you enjoy. If there's any meat behind the implication, it could be that I'm scarred a bit by the "Gam & Sim locked in bitter combat" model of play that I'm used to, or that Sim play simply doesn't appeal to me and I'm therefore recoiling at the suggestion that i may be doing it. Or perhaps what I think if when I hear "Sim" is what you refer to as strictly Zilchplay. So anyway, without bogging down in this tangent too much (I for one feel the loss of the Theory Forums), let me say that the discussion has been illuminating in examining my preconceptions and my play style. So thanks. And don't worry, I won't rend you; that would be far too brutal for the game I'm running. ;)

Hi Blake,

Thanks, I think I've pretty well decided to go the Heroquest route for my game, so I now I get to check off the titular goal of the thread! Yay!

I would like to try Burning Wheel as well sometime for a more martial ME game. The scripted combat thing sounds wierd though. . .

Well, folks, as I've pretty much accomplished the purpose of the thread, I think we can probaly pack it in, EXCEPT:

I would be interested to see if anyone has any constructive comments on the descriptions of player group that I submitted. If not, hey, cool. Also, any other perspectives on the recent exchange regarding CA would be welcome.

Peace,

[Lamorak33]

Joel

"Can you have narratavism in a world as clearly defined as Middle Earth?" The short answer is yes. The clue here is to not get hung up on the creative agenda. If you use narratavist techniques then you (usually) get narratavist play. But others more sage than me in other more appropriate forums than this one can tell you about that.

I'd like to suggest collaborating with you (and others) on producing a set of Heroquest keywords/ Heroquest to middle earth conversion. How about this; lets start a new thread and do it! I am really busy at the moment being at the business end of the academic year (studying the final year of my part time degree), but I would love to get involved in this project, being a bit of a Tolkein nut. Waddya say?

Regards
Rob

[Joel P. Shempert]

That would be awesome. But it should probably wait until I get my hands on Heroquest and read the sucker. Which should be, like, a week or two

And RE: the "Narr in ME" question, I've come to pretty much the same conclusion. I think the thread was a necessary process to work out the issues involved.

Peace,

[madviking]

My group here in Canada is playing a Middle Earth game (going on 5 months now) using The Burning Wheel (revised), which has been difficult, but highly rewarding and a good middle earth fit. The game's system of beliefs, instincts, traits and artha has made playing to premise work for us despite it being a new concept for us. Many teething pains for this bunch of simulationist grognards.

Eric Hansen

[Lamorak33]

That would be awesome. But it should probably wait until I get my hands on Heroquest and read the sucker. Which should be, like, a week or two

Cool, I'll keep an eye out. Ron, where is the best place to develop a Middle Earth spin on Heroquest? In the Heroquest forum?

Regards
Rob

[Durgil]

For what it's worth, I would take a serious look at Luke Crane's Burning Wheel system.

I've always wanted to run an M-E campaign, as well, but I thought the 26th or 27th century of the Third Age looked particularly interesting.  There are dragons in the Grey Mountains, but Smaug hasn't decended upon Erebor (until 2770).  Moria and the Misty Mountains are full of orcs.  Eriador is sparcly poplulated with plenty of old ruins to search out, and the Dwarves of Erebor are going strong.  Plus, you're still far enough before the time of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings to not get involved with very much of that story line.

[Silmenume]

Hey Joel!

I am delighted to read that you've been able to clarify and sort out what you are looking to accomplish through your gaming recreations!

Don't worry about being proficient or not proficient in the jargon here.  Better to describe, as you did, what you are "looking" for from your desired gaming experience than to fumble around with some difficult to understand jargon.  You did the right thing!

I simply did my homework and come up with a cool time and place which I thought would be a great setting for a story, with lots of GM and player latitude. Is that necessarily Sim?

No, it is not necessarily Sim.  You have the right of it.  It is what the players do with all that homework and what not that determines what CA is being expressed.  From what you have pointed out and linked to you seem to have a very good understanding of what you are looking to do and it does seem solidly Narrativist.  I am curious to read about how such a game plays out.  Given that I have been playing Middle Earth set about 30 years before the War of the Rings in a Sim mode for about the last 10 years, meeting and playing along side, sometimes in very important roles, Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, Galadriel, Bilbo, Elladan (RIP) and Elrohir(RIP), King Thranduil of the Mirkwood, Legolas, King Dain of the Lonely Mountain, the Stewards Ecthelion II and Denethor, Prince Adrahil and his heir Imrahil, nearly died (and nearly failing) trying to protect Finduilas who was heavy with Boromir (was actually present for the birth of Boromir – even cooler I got to name him!) I am very eager to read how your own game unfolds!

Your clarification of "causality" is OK in my book - your explained usage makes sense to me.  :)

I recognize from your posts that I tend to refer, however veiled, to Sim play as implicitly negative, as in "bad." I apologize. I don't mean to, and I don't mean to belittle a play style you enjoy.

No need to apologize because you are not guilty of anything!  There is sort of this old ghost floating about that keeps trying to reanimate the idea that if play is interesting then it can't possibly be Sim.  My over reaction stemmed from me, trying really hard, to forestall that pernicious idea from any taking root.  I should be apologizing to you!

I really do wish you all the best in your endeavor and like I said I am eager to hear how you go about implementing your ideas as well as how well they actually play out!  From one Tolkien fan to another – Auta i lome (Passing is the night)!

[Joel P. Shempert]

No need to apologize because you are not guilty of anything!  There is sort of this old ghost floating about that keeps trying to reanimate the idea that if play is interesting then it can't possibly be Sim.  My over reaction stemmed from me, trying really hard, to forestall that pernicious idea from any taking root.  I should be apologizing to you!

No, no, it's quite all right. See, I WAS guilty of letting an anti-Sim bias show through, not a healthy and natural "I don't prefer that kind of play" bias, but as you said, an ugly "if play is interesting then it can't possibly be Sim" bias. Your reaction helped me realize that this semi-unconscious prejudice was coloring my comments, and enabled me to correct for it. So I say to you, no need to apologize, and my apology still stands.

Of course, if you persist we'll just have to each be satisfied with knowing in our own minds that we were properly apologetic. :)

Anyway, everyone, my Heroquest book is on its way! When I get it and read it, I can start working with the interested parties on Keyword conversions and such.

Thanks again for everyone's help with this thread!

Peace,