[ORN RPG] My Big 3 answers

[Quim]

After reading several posts about The Big 3 RPG design questions (thanks Troy_Costisick for his clarifications from here: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16996.0) I've tried to come up with mine. Here they go. Please assist me should you thing I have misunderstood something. Thanks.

1. - What is your game about?

The ORN RPG tries to emulate the world of ORN, a fantasy comic book from Spain.

2. - What do the characters do?

Characters are anthropomorphic animals in a fantasy world. If we analyze the comic itself we can come to the conclusion that all its characters are in a personal quest (seeking revenge, redeem themselves, honor, glory, etc.)

3. - What do the players do?

Players role-plays their characters using their resources as skills and traits, but mainly generating conflict through using character traits in order to evolve (gaining experience).

Comments:

I really found out that answering these questions was useful, as they force me to think deeply in the game. Besides it has generated some thoughts that I didn't had into account in the first design phase.

A) I didn't realized about "the personal quest" approach of the comic, which I think it can be very interesting to put it on the system. I've thought about some kind of reward as the character reaches more and more his personal goal, only to find out that after a goal there is always another one. What do you think? How can I handle this? Any ideas?

B)Regarding point 3, in ORN RPG traits have a double function: They have a positive aspect, which players can use to gain a bonus regarding the trait and a "negative" aspect, which players "invoke" to generate conflict and thus gaining experience. This way they are "compensated" in the game and, in the other hand, it gives some narrative power to the player. What do you think?

[Anders Larsen]

Some thoughts:

It may be interesting to have the player tell how the character ended up with a personal quest. ex: "What have you character done that he need to redeem?" And then you can use that as entry point into the game. Actually, most of the character could be formed around the answer to that question.

But then again, if this is a goal that define the character, it is hard to make a new goal for the character. It could be done by having the character slowly sidetrack into another quest. Maybe when the character finally have a chance to redeem himself, it is not really important for him anymore. Now that he have seen much more of the world, personal matters is not very important comparing to the problem people around him faces. It may be a more worthy goal to help them.

In this way the personal goal (redeem himself), is pushed into the background by a higher goal (helping others).

I don't know if I am making much sense here, but I hope it can give you some inspiration.

btw, can you give some example of Traits? The idea seems fine, but I like some concrete example before commenting on it.

- Anders

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I really encourage you to focus on this part for your design:

Characters are anthropomorphic animals in a fantasy world. If we analyze the comic itself we can come to the conclusion that all its characters are in a personal quest (seeking revenge, redeem themselves, honor, glory, etc.)

How do you think you might accomplish that sort of play with your system?

Peace,

-Troy

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there! Welcome!

What strikes me in your answers is this - note my emphasis:

mainly generating conflict through using character traits in order to evolve

That's where I sit up and say "De veras?" Because that would mean that I, the player, get to make the conflicts of interest during play. That leads me to know, now, what I want to tell you about as you develop the game, based on years of discussion here at the Forge.

So let me know more about that. Develop that idea. Really grab it. The player generates conflict using his character's traits. What does that look like, in a session of play?

I also recommend checking out The Questing Beast, in the RPG section of Random Order Creations, which is a bit of a mind-blower and shares some features with your stated goals.

Best,
Ron

[Quim]

But then again, if this is a goal that define the character, it is hard to make a new goal for the character. It could be done by having the character slowly sidetrack into another quest. Maybe when the character finally have a chance to redeem himself, it is not really important for him anymore. Now that he have seen much more of the world, personal matters is not very important comparing to the problem people around him faces. It may be a more worthy goal to help them.

Mmmm, yes, that's very interesting. I don't really know change the personal goal. I want it to more than a role-playing general goal, I would like it to be part of the system. But, to be honest I have no idea how to make it happen. Firstly I though about some kind of "goal-counter", but it seems too much rigid and very difficult to implement bearing in mind the myriad of goals that players can imagine.

btw, can you give some example of Traits? The idea seems fine, but I like some concrete example before commenting on it.

Yes, sure. In ORN RPG there will be personality traits, psychological traits, race traits and social traits. For instance, a social trait may be "Wanted", that is, sought for incarceration. Player would be able to use it for gaining an intimidation bonus, but also would be able to "invoke" it to make avoid being helped by the city guard, on the contrary tried to be arrested. The more stressful the situation/conflict invoked the more experience gained.

How do you think you might accomplish that sort of play with your system?

As I said. I don't really know. It was answering the big 3 that it came as the most appropriate answer, but I has to work on that. Do you know any other games that handle this kind of rules?

I also recommend checking out The Questing Beast, in the RPG section of Random Order Creations, which is a bit of a mind-blower and shares some features with your stated goals.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

[Anders Larsen]

The character creation could be something like:

First question(s) to player: What are your characters personal quest, who are your character and what have your character done to get that quest?

This could make basis for what skills and traits the character have, and of course give reason for the quest.

The next question could be: What do your character care about?

This is the more weak social goal, that will properly be very broad in the beginning. Something like: "I don't like when innocent people suffer".

Maybe the goals could work somewhat like traits. You can invoke them to gain a form of bonus, but if you invoke the social goal it will increase in strength and the personal goal will get weaker. 


Do you have some mechanics for traits and skills? It will be easier to come with ideas if I have something I can work from. I am especially interested in traits, because they seem to be the central element in the system.

- Anders

[Quim]

Maybe the goals could work somewhat like traits. You can invoke them to gain a form of bonus, but if you invoke the social goal it will increase in strength and the personal goal will get weaker. 

Mmmm, I know know, I wouldn't like to repeat the same structure for Traits as for the Personal Research. I've been working on something like an "ladder" of accomplishments towards the final goal. The ladder would have "positive" steps while PC closes to the final goal or negative/loses steps when working against it. Thus player would have to broadly define which  steps are necessary to accomplish PC goals and which "taboos" do PC have. The more positive steps the PC reach the better his morale, and thus the better his social interactions (for instance, some bonus on Charisma based checks). The lower the morale, the worst this relations, maybe tending to some kind of social or personal complications (depressions, drunkenness, applied as a Traits which can on be "invoked" to generate complications.

The problem I see is that it will maybe complicate extremely PC creation, specially of it is also applied to NPC.

What do you think.

Do you have some mechanics for traits and skills? It will be easier to come with ideas if I have something I can work from. I am especially interested in traits, because they seem to be the central element in the system.

Skills are checked by the sum of 2d10. Success is done when rolled under Skill level. The player will be able to "invoke" a Trait to get a bonus in a skill. No more, no less. Besides, as I told, Traits could also be "invoked" to generate complications in a scene. PC gain XP through this complications. Thus are the players themselves that can contribute to the story through the system.

[Anders Larsen]

To have only one goal that never change, can be hard to do in a long-running game. Not only will the character exit the game when his goal is reached, but normally a character will change with time. I do not know the ORN comic, and maybe in that comic the character never change, but I doubt that. Most stories are about how the characters changes because of what they face on their journey.

I think that the ladder style scale is an interesting idea, but what do the character have to overcome, to go from one step to the next?

You are talking about taboos, so maybe the character have some mental blockages that they have to pull down, before they can go to the next step. The blockages should be related to the back story and the personal goal in some way. If the goal is revenge the blockages could be stuff like hate, sorrow, anger etc. (they should properly be a little more specific). To pull down this blockage the character have to use it in some constrictive way. And when he have have pulled down a blockage and gone to the next step, his mind is now clear of that emotion.

And because of that he have changed as a person.

Be careful of comparing a personal goal with moral. Revenge and Glory, have not necessarily anything to do with moral and achieving these goal would properly not give you more Charisma. On the other hand, clearing your mind of hatred will increase your charisma.

I don't think that a system that support this need to be very complex. I don't have any exact idea for a mechanic now. But you can start by telling me if I am completely of track, or if you can use some of these thing, then I may be able to give you some tips for possible mechanics.


You seems to have a good handle on what you want with skills and traits. I just have one thought: When a player invoke a trait on a skill, but the skill test fails anyway, what happen then? Something may then go really wrong. This will make it a gamble every time the player uses a trait to get a skill bonus.

- Anders

[Quim]

To have only one goal that never change, can be hard to do in a long-running game. Not only will the character exit the game when his goal is reached, but normally a character will change with time. I do not know the ORN comic, and maybe in that comic the character never change, but I doubt that. Most stories are about how the characters changes because of what they face on their journey.

No, PC will be able to change their goal (always under GM and he other players approval). PC can change their goal when it is finally accomplished or when a major even change his live towards another goal.

I think that the ladder style scale is an interesting idea, but what do the character have to overcome, to go from one step to the next?

Firstly we thought that player should assign steps towards the goal. But we finally have decided to put that idea aside. Now, as you suggested before the goal is renamed to "Leitmotiv" an is treated like a trait. Although there are some diferences. Leitmotiv can be invoked to get a bonus to skills in a situation linked to it, but now if a PC do something against his leitmotiv, GM and the other players by consensus can assign a new trait that can only be invoked to generate complications by GM (ex. alcoholism, depression, etc.). The PC can lose this "negative" trait by refusing a bonus in a leitmotiv fitting situation.

What do yo thing? It's easier, It's fun, and all players do participate in the narration...

Be careful of comparing a personal goal with moral. Revenge and Glory, have not necessarily anything to do with moral and achieving these goal would properly not give you more Charisma. On the other hand, clearing your mind of hatred will increase your charisma.

I know, I know, that's be we changed it.

You seems to have a good handle on what you want with skills and traits. I just have one thought: When a player invoke a trait on a skill, but the skill test fails anyway, what happen then? Something may then go really wrong. This will make it a gamble every time the player uses a trait to get a skill bonus.

Mmmmm. Very good point. I have to thing more on that. Thanks again. Any more comments are deeply welcome.

[Anders Larsen]

Firstly we thought that player should assign steps towards the goal. But we finally have decided to put that idea aside. Now, as you suggested before the goal is renamed to "Leitmotiv" an is treated like a trait. Although there are some diferences. Leitmotiv can be invoked to get a bonus to skills in a situation linked to it, but now if a PC do something against his leitmotiv, GM and the other players by consensus can assign a new trait that can only be invoked to generate complications by GM (ex. alcoholism, depression, etc.). The PC can lose this "negative" trait by refusing a bonus in a leitmotiv fitting situation.

In general I like this; it will make the system simpler. There is just one thing that concern me a little, and that is, it is the GM and other players that decides when a Character have acted against his belief. When a player make a belief he will normally have a lot of thoughts about what this belief means for this character, and very few of these thoughts will actually be written down in the beliefs. So the player can have a somewhat different opinion on how the beliefs should be acted, than the GM and other player have. This can risk creating some conflicts between player and GM.

A solution can be to give the player some immediate reward when he acts against the belief. But it will create more problem for him in the long run. Then the player himself can say that he want to act against his beliefs now, to get out of a tight situation, with the consequence that he will get an negative trait.

You seems to have a good handle on what you want with skills and traits. I just have one thought: When a player invoke a trait on a skill, but the skill test fails anyway, what happen then? Something may then go really wrong. This will make it a gamble every time the player uses a trait to get a skill bonus.

Mmmmm. Very good point. I have to thing more on that. Thanks again. Any more comments are deeply welcome.

I should properly mention the reason why I suggested this. You can risk that the players try to get trait bonus in nearly any situation they face. Players can be extremely skill in coming up with excuses for why this trait can be used now. But if there is some small risk to using a trait to get a bonus, the players will be more careful about making use of trait bonus all the time. This will make it much easier to handle for the GM.

Then again, the risk should not be too great, because then the player will never use a trait to get skill bonus.

An other thought I had: When the player uses the negative side of a trait and get into a problematic situation, there should properly be the restriction that he can not use the positive side of the same trait, to get out of the situation again.

btw, In what ways can the player use the xp they get?

- Anders

[Anders Larsen]

Oh, and just one more thing.

I would like to know a little more about the setting. It is very hard for me to make suggestions to the rules if I don't know the main ideas of the setting. So here are some question to the setting:

What are the important concepts/conflicts in the setting, and which of these do you want to be a part of the game?

What are the typical stories in this setting? Just give a very short example.

What is the style of the game? Ex: Action, drama, adventure etc.

- Anders

[Quim]

In general I like this; it will make the system simpler. There is just one thing that concern me a little, and that is, it is the GM and other players that decides when a Character have acted against his belief. When a player make a belief he will normally have a lot of thoughts about what this belief means for this character, and very few of these thoughts will actually be written down in the beliefs. So the player can have a somewhat different opinion on how the beliefs should be acted, than the GM and other player have. This can risk creating some conflicts between player and GM.

Yes, I know what you mean.

A solution can be to give the player some immediate reward when he acts against the belief. But it will create more problem for him in the long run. Then the player himself can say that he want to act against his beliefs now, to get out of a tight situation, with the consequence that he will get an negative trait.

I'm not sure about this. Acting against the belief shouldn't be rewarded. Maybe we could introduce an "stress" scale; Should the PC acts against his believes (decided by GM and Players) a number of times, then he gains the negative trait, thus we simulate the increasing stress the PC is suffering for not acting by his believes, and at the same time letting the PC handle tight situations without and immediate punishment.

I should properly mention the reason why I suggested this. You can risk that the players try to get trait bonus in nearly any situation they face. Players can be extremely skill in coming up with excuses for why this trait can be used now. But if there is some small risk to using a trait to get a bonus, the players will be more careful about making use of trait bonus all the time. This will make it much easier to handle for the GM.

Yes, yes. That's very good. I don't know...why don't gaining an stress point (see last comment) or maybe the failure is a botch.

An other thought I had: When the player uses the negative side of a trait and get into a problematic situation, there should properly be the restriction that he can not use the positive side of the same trait, to get out of the situation again.

That's for sure. A very good point. Thanks again! :D

BTW, In what ways can the player use the xp they get?

For starters I thought about the normal stuff (increasing characteristics, skills, level traits, etc). You know.

Joaquim

[Quim]

What are the important concepts/conflicts in the setting, and which of these do you want to be a part of the game?

There are 2 main hazards in the comic. Adventure hazards, I mean, vampire attacks, sieges, fighting against trolls, etc. On the other hand, it is the personal research theme. Every main character is in a personal mission, from recovering a sacred ring to seeking vengeance or redemption. As I intent to emulate the comic book, both concepts should be taken into account. There is also a lot of common situation scenes in downtime between main plots.

What are the typical stories in this setting? Just give a very short example.

From escorting a merchant, to rescuing a highjacked village from a troll, passing through recovering a stolen ring from a group of vampires or helping an immortal king kill their immortal minions seeking vengeance.

What is the style of the game? Ex: Action, drama, adventure etc.

It has a little bit of all this ingredients, maybe more action and drama than adventure in the Indiana Jones sense ;)

Hope this helps. And thanks again for your help.

[Anders Larsen]

I don't know about the stress scale. It seems to me like a patch role, but I may be wrong here. Your may want to think about how these thing are handled in the comic. When a character in the comic go against his personal goal what happen to him then?

In what you write about the setting, there seems to be two thing the characters do. One is to help others, and the second is to pursued their personal goal. But these two thing can be in conflict with each other. Maybe it is interesting to work a little with that conflict.

If there is a character that want revenge, and he have just heard that the person that he want to kill is in the next town. And at the same time the people in the local town have asked for his help to get rid of a troll that plague the area. Then what do he do?

In this case the moral correct thing to do will be to go against the personal goal, and stay to help the townspeople with their problem. This may be an interesting dilemma to have in the game, but if you always is punished if you go against your personal goal, it will be hard for the player to justify that their character should stay and help the townspeople.

I don't know if this conflict is important in the comic?

The reason I asked how the player uses their xp, is that people normally don't think to must about that. It may be interesting if the player can use xp on other thing than raising the character's abilities. Maybe the xps can be used on something that is more important for the game. Well, I really don't have any insightful to say about this; it was just a thought.

- Anders