Forum changes: Editing of posts has been turned off until further notice.
Started by buzz, April 18, 2006, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 20, 2006, 07:04:08 PMFirst, Buzz, I'm going to call you (and Rilestone) on something. This business about your goal being to "play your cool character, in a satisfying way in an interesting setting?" That's like someone whose knees have been shot out saying, "I just want to walk." Which means that my points about Creative Agenda are not applicable yet, because Creative Agenda concerns where and how you want to walk.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 20, 2006, 07:04:08 PMAll right, now let's get concrete with Champions, although I'd really like a sit-down with the GM and his dog-eared notebook, to ask some question about how long he played the previous edition(s), which supplements from those days he does and does not utilize, and so on. I suspect there's more 3rd edition in there than one might think.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 20, 2006, 07:04:08 PMBut here's a loop to throw you for - just for a minute, consider D&D... Check out the essay if you'd like.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 20, 2006, 07:04:08 PMNo particular detail in terms of the imagined content is going to be a give-away for any of these. That's the big error in talking about Champions and Creative Agenda - to focus on what the characters do and what they're like. Instead, we have to talk about the real people and what they do, and what they like.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 20, 2006, 07:04:08 PMHence the expert-GM and his dog-eared notebook.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 20, 2006, 07:04:08 PMIn your group's case, what I'm seeing is the kind of play that ultimately was to inspire the design of Exalted, almost verbatim, with the additional influence of Magic: the Gathering.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 20, 2006, 07:04:08 PMWhew!! That was a big chunk o'something-or-other. Buzz, here's my next question. Do you want to delve into what your group is doing right now in Big Model terms? Or do you want to talk about what you'd like to see, or get from play, and discuss that?
Quote from: Storn on April 21, 2006, 09:00:26 AMHowever, I do think it needs to be seriously adjusted, for me and players like me, to absorb some of the last 20 years of RPG theory. It could be even stronger, even more flexible and even more elegant.
QuoteI recall some discussions over on the HERO boards where you mentioned most of the sentiments in your post here. I don't want to divert into abstract system discussion, as I'm thinking that's not the point Actual Play... but I do agree with a lot of what you say. I think Steve Long's preference for the gritty (e.g., Dark Champions) informs a lot of what HERO is right now.
QuoteThis group got together via a posting on the Hero Games forums. The four "component subgroups" (Mike, Kathy, Bill; Bart, Steck; Jason; me) did not know each other prior to forming the group.
QuoteIf your chief aim is to enjoy playing (and I mean playing, not just getting together with friends and cobbling together solitary imaginative satisfaction once in a while), at all, then it's going to be a long haul;
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 22, 2006, 04:05:51 PMWhat you are describing as "communication" and "education" will be perceived as taking over, patronizing, and disrupting.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 23, 2006, 11:33:54 AMAt least one of them is using his old play-history as background - he may well consider this not to be a new group, but a batch of new players for his ongoing game. If I'm reading him right, based on Buzz's description, he may even consider it his duty to make sure that the group knows how to play Champs "right," in which case discussion of how, for instance, skills might be an important arena of conflict is right out the door.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 23, 2006, 11:33:54 AMAll right, Buzz, let me go with your statement that you'd like to discuss how you'd like to play. Here's step 1. Give me an example of an unmitigated success, in your experience, of role-playing. A great time with great fun, perhaps a session or two's worth. When was it, what were you playing, and what happened?
QuoteI wouldn't be conspiring with the GM to contrive the entrance of a new PC for me if I was still having a blast with my main PC. And I'm the second person in the group to do this, AND I know of two other members who have talked about bringing in different PCs.
QuoteThis session has informed my attitude towards GM'ing more than probably any other (in a positive "do it like this" sense, as opposed to a "Don't ever do this" sense.).
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 25, 2006, 11:38:24 AMGrab onto that dissatisfaction as the foundation and driving force for this dialogue. You can take it as given that I'm not saying Mike or Bart or anyone is a bad person, and you don't have to keep telling me they're not, and then qualifying yourself again because you're not very satisfied. That'll just go 'round and 'round forever.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 25, 2006, 11:38:24 AMI'm guessing that you haven't had much experience in applying the same idea to an entire story-in-creation, i.e., having character decisions set up the important conflicts in the first place.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 25, 2006, 11:38:24 AMI'm guessing that your experience of characters being knocked out or killed is synonymous with you being unable to contribute to what's going on, and also with the character not getting to shine either before or later - just being taken out and "gone."
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 25, 2006, 11:38:24 AMCheck me on this - has any long-term play been a solid source of fun for you, reliably and consistently as the months go by? And I mean solid fun, not intermittent or provisional.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 25, 2006, 11:38:24 AMQuoteThis session has informed my attitude towards GM'ing more than probably any other (in a positive "do it like this" sense, as opposed to a "Don't ever do this" sense.).When you say your "attitude towards GMing," you're mainly talking about your view toward others being the GM, while you remain a player, right? In other words, this is what you want from the GM's input at the table.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 25, 2006, 11:38:24 AM(For people who are interested, Buzz is facing the kind of Champions play which is the absolutely direct, do not pass Go, progenitor of Exalted.)
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 25, 2006, 11:38:24 AMLet everyone (not just Bart and Mike!) know about what you want. Describe it just like you did here based on the Mearls session, and say that you like the overall developing story, but you want more of this sort of thing per unit play. If you want, point out that non-combat scene influence is something you like to do, and would like those scenes to be more open-ended so that you're not just moving on to the next set-piece.I'm still holding that hat, even if I'm not wearing it, so I have to say, I'm not real optimistic about the response you'll get. But I hope I'm wrong and they'll say "No problem!" Let's see.
Quotewhat about from the "lead by example" side of things? How can I approach HERO in a way that incorporates what we've been talking about and what I've been learning from the Forge? How do I give these players a game that meets my Mearls standard, but that they will enjoy as well?
QuoteDoes this mean that you can't change the play mode of a group? No, actually there's a simple solution. Just play a game that strongly supports that mode from the ground up.
QuoteThe good news is that you can approach the Hero System quite easily and happily with what we're discussing, and with material that's scattered all over the Forge
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 28, 2006, 10:41:50 AM(although brace yourself for the same kind of dodging you've been doing in this thread, including stuff I didn't call you on)
Quote from: Ron Edwards on April 28, 2006, 10:41:50 AMBut clarify something for me first: are you talking about GMing for this group, in that question? I know you said you did so once, but the current question ("how can I give them a game") disturbs me in a number of ways. Are you planning to GM for the group again? Give me some more context about that.