Exalted --> TSoY Conversion

[Belinda K.]

I'd like to convert my Exalted game to TSoY, to suit my light GMing style better and to make things 'flow' more. I've looked at Exalted --> Wushu, but really want to play with TSoY at the moment. Here's a rough draft of my Exalted --> TSoY conversion ideas at the moment. I'm after feedback/comments/ideas on how to improve things!

Stunt dice – the Vigor/Instinct/Reason Pools represent personal stunt bonus. Players cannot spend a point form these pools unless they give a cool description first. Only one bonus die can be gained at once, as per usual TsoY rules.

The Gift Dice represent stunt bonuses awarded by the GM for exceptional coolness.

Skills:
Based on the default character abilities from Exalted, divvied up as followed.

Archery (V), Athletics (V), Awareness (R), Bureaucracy (R), Craft (R), Dodge (V), Endurance (Physical Resistance – Endure) (V), Integrity (Social Resistance – React) (I), Investigation (I), Larceny (R), Linguistics (R), Lore (R), Martial Arts (R), Medicine (R), Melee (V), Occult (R), Performance (I), Presence (I), Ride (V), Sail (V), Socialize (I), Stealth (V), Survival (V), Thrown (V), War (R), Willpower (Mental Resistance – Resist) (R)

Hmm, a bit too many Vs and Rs, so what if the players determine how they're using the ability and thereby determine which pool to pump from? e.g. Evaluating an enemy's fighting style would be a Reason-based use of the Martial Arts skill?

Specialities – Done with the Secret of the Specialty.

Limit Break – Gain penalty dice when this comes up in play.

Backgrounds/Virtues – Not sure how to connect these to TSoY engine yet. Possibly more secrets.

Secrets – Mechanism for charms/Exalted anima powers and stuff. You can learn any other caste's secrets (with the exception of the anima power) for double the XP cost.

GENERAL SECRETS
Secret of the Speciality, Secret of Enhancement (Ability), Secret of Contacts

DAWN CASTE SECRETS
Secret of the Dawn Caste Anima
If the player spends 1 Instinct, they can cause lesser mortals to quail before them... [Mechanics?]

Also – Secret of the Mighty Blow, Secret of Knockback, Secret of Throwing, Secret of the Signature Weapon, Secret of Evaluate

ZENITH CASTE SECRETS
Secret of the Zenith Caste Anima
If the player spends 1 Instinct, they can incinerate fallen bodies before them, so that they their bodies go unpossessed by ghosts and so forth. Further more, for a scene, they do +2 damage versus 'dark' enemies – demons, undead etc.

Also – Secret of Blessing, Secret of the Unwalked Path, Secret of Inner Meaning

TWILIGHT CASTE SECRETS
Secret of the Twilight Caste Anima
For each point of Reason that the player spends, they gain... [something to do with defence]

Also, Secret of Imbuement, Secret of Quality Constructions, Secret of Herbal Health

ECLIPSE CASTE SECRETS
Secret of the Eclipse Caste Anima
For 1 instinct, a character create a pact with another character, sanctified by Heaven. If either character breaks that pact, bad stuff happens.

Secret of the Secrets
For double the XP cost, an Eclipse Caste can learn Secrets outside their usual purview.

Secret of Diplomatic Immunity
For 1 Instinct, a character becomes immune to hostilities by spirits and fae providing they follow the appropriate code of hospitality and conduct.

Also, Secret of Languages, Secret of Animal Speech


NIGHT CASTE SECRETS
Secret of the Night Caste Anima
For 1 vigor, a character can make themselves super stealthed, including muffling powers that cause anima expenditure to flare.

Also, Secret of the Flying Leap, Secret of the Sudden Knife, Secret of the Hidden Pocket, Secret of Disarm

[James_Nostack]

I'm not familiar with Exalted, but would Keys work for Backgrounds/Virtues?  Keys serve the purpose of rewarding players through personality mechanics.

Also: does it make sense to preserve the whole "caste" thing?  As I understand it, "caste" in Exalted is a lot like classes in Dungeons & Dragons: you've got four people together, having adventures in a squadron (because separation in time/space/emotional stakes causes problems for the DM).  In order to give each one something useful to do on the team, you've got to specialize, which is enforced in the rules by these mutually exclusive options.

SOY doesn't share these assumptions about teamwork.  Characters don't have to stick together, or view each other as part of an "adventuring party."  The system is strong enough to yield a good story anyway, without driving the Storyguide insane.  Thus there's no requirement for the team mentality,  thus no need for "niche protection," and thus no real need for character classes.

Would Exalted work if all "Solar Exalted" were lumped together?  It would lessen your work, and give people lots of options.  If you still wanted to classify, you could say, "Pick a caste.  This one secret is absolutely required.  Also, people with your kind of soul usually pick one of these (X number of ) Keys, because it's generally in their nature--but you can pick other Keys too."  And maybe house rule that you can only learn a secret if you've been taught by someone else.  Which preserves that whole martial-arts seeking out a mentor to learn the Secret Mantis Technique or whatever.

[Belinda K.]

I'm after a low-maintenance conversion, that will still preserve the Exalted 'flavour'. Part of the flavour is the caste system, I think. What I might do is thematically group the various secrets/charms together in a list, but not charge extra for a PC taking an out-of-caste charm. I'll might also rename the Secrets with Exalted's charm names, rather attempting to literally convert each charm into TSoY (much pain in that direction!). Hmm, so the important thing will be getting the default secret/charm for each Caste balanced right.

[Chris Peterson]

This sounds like a very interesting project! Cross-over projects like this always have a tough time balance old rules, new rules, and old flavor. I've read about Exalted, so I would be very curious to read more about your conversion to TSOY (especially the results of your playtesting). You should share them here. :)

Archery (V), Athletics (V), Awareness (R), Bureaucracy (R), Craft (R), Dodge (V), Endurance (Physical Resistance – Endure) (V), Integrity (Social Resistance – React) (I), Investigation (I), Larceny (R), Linguistics (R), Lore (R), Martial Arts (R), Medicine (R), Melee (V), Occult (R), Performance (I), Presence (I), Ride (V), Sail (V), Socialize (I), Stealth (V), Survival (V), Thrown (V), War (R), Willpower (Mental Resistance – Resist) (R)

Hmm, a bit too many Vs and Rs, so what if the players determine how they're using the ability and thereby determine which pool to pump from? e.g. Evaluating an enemy's fighting style would be a Reason-based use of the Martial Arts skill?

Easiest solution is to pre-determine the skill (V,I,R) mappings, but there will always be problems. A another simple system to keep the flavor is to let each player choose which skill (V,I,R) to match for their character. Other players' character might make different choices.

[Chris Peterson]

For example

Archery (V), Athletics (V), Awareness (R), Bureaucracy (R), Craft (R), Dodge (V), Endurance (Physical Resistance – Endure) (V), Integrity (Social Resistance – React) (I), Investigation (I), Larceny (R), Linguistics (R), Lore (R), Martial Arts (R), Medicine (R), Melee (V), Occult (R), Performance (I), Presence (I), Ride (V), Sail (V), Socialize (I), Stealth (V), Survival (V), Thrown (V), War (R), Willpower (Mental Resistance – Resist) (R)

Hmm, a bit too many Vs and Rs, so what if the players determine how they're using the ability and thereby determine which pool to pump from? e.g. Evaluating an enemy's fighting style would be a Reason-based use of the Martial Arts skill?

Easiest solution is to pre-determine the skill (V,I,R) mappings, but there will always be problems. A another simple system to keep the flavor is to let each player choose which skill (V,I,R) to match for their character. Other players' character might make different choices.

Just to clarify, one character might want Survival (V) to tough it out. Another character might want Survival (R) to know how to build a fire. Another character might want Survival (I) to communicate with animals or eat berries or something.

[Belinda K.]

This is the latest version of the conversion:

http://home.exetel.com.au/storage/files/ExaltedTSoY.pdf

It's a straightforward port of TSoY's existing secrets to charms with an Exalted tweak. Charms are set up as a flat list rather than doing the charm tree thing. The core Exalted book could be easily mined for particular shticks that would work in TSoY's 'Secret' mechanic.

I haven't considered the impact of the other different types of Exalted, apart from all giving them appropriate Anima powers. Should they also pick from the generic charm list, and just have their anima banner powers and possibly reduced essence pools to set them apart?

I also haven't thought about anima flare problems either. Or limit breaks. Hmm.

[Belinda K.]

Easiest solution is to pre-determine the skill (V,I,R) mappings, but there will always be problems. A another simple system to keep the flavor is to let each player choose which skill (V,I,R) to match for their character. Other players' character might make different choices. Just to clarify, one character might want Survival (V) to tough it out. Another character might want Survival (R) to know how to build a fire. Another character might want Survival (I) to communicate with animals or eat berries or something. :)

Thanks, Chris. Since I haven't playtested this stuff yet, I don't know the impact of not locking a V/I/R mapping down to each skill. However, since I can see the context of each skill changing during play (and that's how I'd prefer to run things), I'd like to try a more freeform approach goes where the immediate context during play determines the V/I/R mapping. Would it result it too many situations of warriors trying to find I or R ways to pump their weapon skills in combat having run out of Vigor?

[Filip Luszczyk]

As for the Virtues and V/R/I problems, I suggest tossing out Vigor, Instinct and Reason, and using Virtues as pools instead. There are four of them, so this requires a bit of change from standard TSoY, but I think this solution is much more in genre here. Also, if you toss out Linguistics (its functions are easily covered by language secrets and Lore), 24 skill are left - exactly 6 per Virtue. Also, Willpower IMO doesn't fit well as a skill - I suggest putting mental resistance under Integrity, along with social, or under Lore. Or maybe Investigation or Awareness.

Interesting. I've been using TSoY keys in Exalted for a long time.

Also: does it make sense to preserve the whole "caste" thing?  As I understand it, "caste" in Exalted is a lot like classes in Dungeons & Dragons: you've got four people together, having adventures in a squadron (because separation in time/space/emotional stakes causes problems for the DM).  In order to give each one something useful to do on the team, you've got to specialize, which is enforced in the rules by these mutually exclusive options.

By no means. "Caste" determines what was the function of the previous incarnations of your character, and the general type of essence shard his current incarnation inherited. There is no direct connection between Caste and character function, like in D&D. E.g. it's completely OK to have Dawn sorcerer, Eclipse berserker or any other combination. Although people with a given knack tend to exalt in corresponding Caste, that's not always the case (especially "now", when gods are rarely interested in their champions). Mechanically, the only thing that is determined by character's Caste is his Anima power, a minor magical ability, and half of characters favored skills. It lends well to using Castes with non-standard character concepts - e.g. I've seen a lot of heavily combat oriented Twilights and Eclipses.

[Belinda K.]

As for the Virtues and V/R/I problems, I suggest tossing out Vigor, Instinct and Reason, and using Virtues as pools instead. There are four of them, so this requires a bit of change from standard TSoY, but I think this solution is much more in genre here. Also, if you toss out Linguistics (its functions are easily covered by language secrets and Lore), 24 skill are left - exactly 6 per Virtue. Also, Willpower IMO doesn't fit well as a skill - I suggest putting mental resistance under Integrity, along with social, or under Lore. Or maybe Investigation or Awareness.

Wow, Filip - that's a really interesting idea. I'm just trying to imagine how that would work in play - I can easily imagine players 'getting'  the standard V/R/I attributes or even something along the lines of Mental/Physical/Social, but using Compassion/Temperance/Valor and Conviction? I'm finding that a little bit abstract, I must confess.

Hmm, taking your suggestions on board, I'd group it like so:

Compassion: Integrity (Social Resistance), Performance, Presence, Ride, Socialize, Larceny
Temperance: Bureaucracy, Craft, Investigation, Lore (Mental Resistance), Medicine, Occult
Valor: Archery, Melee, Thrown, Dodge, War, Sail
Conviction: Awareness, Athletics, Survival, Endurance (Physical Resistance), Martial Arts, Stealth

While I like the neatness of it, I wonder if it'd be hard for the players to 'get' - that's if you allow the C/T/V/C attribute pools to each have a resistance attribute, and using them in BDTP, so that one could inflict 'Compassion' Harm, or 'Temperance' harm? Or you could ditch that link, and have the C/T/V/C pools, but have mental/physical/social resistance and still allow the usual-ish mental/physical/social Harm to take place.

Currently, I'm still favouring pools of Physical/Mental/Social.

[Filip Luszczyk]

Ok, this is my suggestion for grouping skills, but I don't claim that it's perfect (it surely is not):

Compassion: Crafts, Integrity (Resist)   , Medicine, Performance, Ride, Sail.

Conviction: Bureaucracy, Larceny, Presence, Resistance (Endure), Socialise, Survival.

Temperance: Awareness (React), Dodge, Investigation, Lore, Occult, Stealth.

Valor: Archery, Athletics, Martial Arts, Melee, Thrown, War.

Pools would be recovered according to the nature of the Virtue (e.g. compassion - love, sex and art; conviction - social realisation; temperance - mental activity; valor - feasting & resting). Limit Break could allow recovering one of your pools in one additional way, but only if player decides to act according to his Virtue Flaw for the scene.

Anima Banner could lighten after spending an amount of points from pools, but I can't think of any mechanical application - just cosmetics (unless you go 2nd edition way and Anima effects will be permanent when banner is up).

Now, there are two options:

1.Treat Con as Social pool, Tem as Mental pool, Val as Physical pool (maps Fair Folk rings well), and Comp as supplemental, and don't bother about resistance skill for each one.

2.Treat Con as Social pool (resistance - Integrity), Tem as Mental (resistance - Awareness), Val as Physical (resistance - Resistance) and Comp as Spiritual or Emotional (resistance - Investigation, because you are more suspicious? Bureaucracy, because your heart is more hardened? Or maybe Awa, and Inv goes for Temp? I'm really not sure ;)). And then, you have four kinds of Harm.

Only loose thoughts, though ;)

Oh, yes, one more thing. Since there are good Secrets guidelines in TSoY, I think it's fairly possible to map Exalted Charms into Secrets more or less directly. Also, I don't like that doubling of the cost for out of Caste Charms. What about making it mandatory to have a number of Caste and Favoured charms instead (e.g. at least 2/3 of your Charms must be in-Caste or Favoured)? But then it's just me.

[Andy Kitkowski]

OK, so here I am all chiming in weeks late and all. :-)

I'm a fan of Exalted, and a huge fan of TSOY.

All in all, I think that Exalted would work pretty well with TSOY. The only thing to be aware of is that you're not rolling fistfulls of dice with TSOY like you are with Exalted... well, ok, actually you are, but you're always only taking the Highest Three.

Second off, I think that Virtues would make GREAT pools, but in a "dirty hippie" way: That is, what's the focus of the game? If the focus is on the last kings of the world who may again destroy the earth, constantly at pressure with their Virtues, then holy hell yeah, I'd totally focus on Virtues as pools.  Also, I wouldn't constrain skills to pools like the regular TSOY rules have you do, rather I'd just choose the most applicable for that moment: Using Occult to seal away a demon? Conviction!  Using Martial Arts to charge an army of Dragon Blooded? Valor! etc. No need to pin abilities to pools.

However, if you're going for more of a traditional "High anime/wuxia action game set in asian fantasy tropes" and want TSOY to handle the load, without going too deep into Virtues, I'd totally go with Body-Mind-Social, because those are the three cornerstones of nWoD attribure groups. Again, like old WoD, I probably wouldn't group abilities directly to pools, but in most cases you can totally suss what is being used for what: Fighting with your sword? Body. Looking at another character to judge their ability based on their sword stance? Mind. etc.

So I think it really depends on what kind of game you want to play. For me, both sound interesting, and I could honestly go either way. Though for simplicity, I'd probably go with the pools Body-Mind-Spirit at first.

-Andy

[Belinda K.]

All in all, I think that Exalted would work pretty well with TSOY. The only thing to be aware of is that you're not rolling fistfulls of dice with TSOY like you are with Exalted... well, ok, actually you are, but you're always only taking the Highest Three.

Hi Andy! In another thread, I think Clinton was worried I'd lose the focus of TSoY on people and interacting with people, but I think it can handle Exalted and still be tightly focused on how the characters interact with the other people in the gaming environment. I'll see when I experiment with my group later this week. The starting Exalted are pretty much on the par with starting TSoY characters, I think.

Second off, I think that Virtues would make GREAT pools, but in a "dirty hippie" way: That is, what's the focus of the game? If the focus is on the last kings of the world who may again destroy the earth, constantly at pressure with their Virtues, then holy hell yeah, I'd totally focus on Virtues as pools.  Also, I wouldn't constrain skills to pools like the regular TSOY rules have you do, rather I'd just choose the most applicable for that moment: Using Occult to seal away a demon? Conviction!  Using Martial Arts to charge an army of Dragon Blooded? Valor! etc. No need to pin abilities to pools.

I felt that Mind/Body/Spirit were a bit dull and after thinking about it, decided to see what converison based around the virtue pools would be like. I think it gives the game a bit more flavour, but might be harder for the characters in play to grasp; I'll see. The refresh mechanic forces them to interact with other characters and I'm interested to see what they'll do to push at the game world. I've also linked the virtues to skills, as per my previous discussion with Filip, just to help the players decide which pool to use on which skill (I've got some players who like knowing exactly where the line is drawn - when we tried Wushu Exalted, they didn't like all of the emphasis on DIY attributes and wanted more structure). I can always get rid of this restriction if they don't like it during the playtest.

Anyway, I've got a text block coming up

**

THE VIRTUE POOLS
Virtue pools represent essential, inner qualities that you can use to boost your skills and fuel various powers. There are four virtue pools:

COMPASSION
Definition: This is your power to relate to other people, to empathise with them and understand them. It represents your meaningful humanity and capacity to love love.

Pool Refresh: You refesh your Compassion when you engage with others in a meaningful social and emotional context. This could be a date, a deep and meaningful talk with your girlfriend,  being gregarious at a party or tending orphans in the city slums.  Your character must initiate this action and it must be the only thing they do for a scene.

Resistance: Social attacks can be resisted by your Integrity skill (e.g. such as attempts to humiliate you or make you appear a fool). In BDTP, social harm can damage your Compassion pool.

Harm: When your Compassion pool is harmed through BDTP, it represents a decreased lack of empathy and humanity, an increase in coldness and cynicism, an inability to trust or relate to others.

Healing Harm: To heal Compassion harm, your character needs to interact with others in a way that reaffirms their capacity for love or faith in humanity, where another person is genuinely trying to reach out to your character. The person healing your character must perform a successful Presence or Socialise check. The harm is healed according to their success level. If all of your harm is of a higher level that their success level, then nothing is healed, and healing cannot be tried again in the same scene.

CONVICTION
Definition: This reflects your capacity for resolve, motivation and determination. It's linked to your powers of charisma, drive, self-worth and inspiration. Whereas Compassion reflects your ability to reach to others, Conviction is your power to shape and motivate others regardless of whether you care about them or not.

Pool Refresh: You refresh your Conviction through actions that reaffirm your self-worth – such as winning a contest, inspiring another to your cause, or receiving gratitude by a person after you have inevitably changed their life.  Your character must initiate this action and it must be the only thing they do for a scene.

Resistance: Emotional and psychological attacks attacks can be resisted by your  Presence skill. In BDTP, emotional and psychological harm can damage your Conviction pool.

Harm: When your Conviction pool is harmed through BDTP, it represents increased personal insecurity, low self esteem and lack of motivation or focus.

Healing Damage:  To heal Conviction harm, your character needs counselling (via Presence or Socialise check performed on the character) by someone who can restore their sense of importance and self-worth, or your character needs to win a contest in a significant way or do something to achieve the praise of colleagues.  The harm is healed according to the success level of the appropriate skill check. If all of your harm is of a higher level that the success level, then nothing is healed, and healing cannot be tried again in the same scene.

TEMPERANCE
Definition: This reflects your capacity of self-control, patience, inner tranquility, concentration and mental pursuits.

Pool Refresh: You refresh your Temperance through actions that either ratify your self control or your mental stability.
Resisting temptation, engaging in a philophical or intellectual debate or crafting a sculpture are all actions that act to refresh your Temperance pool. Remember that your refresh action has to involve other people – sitting in a garden and meditating by yourself won't refresh your Temperance, but teaching meditation techniques to others or displaying your artwork to others on the streets will.  Your character must initiate this action and it must be the only thing they do for a scene.

Resistance: Mental attacks (to damage your concentration or to stump you with a puzzle) can be resisted by your Lore skill. In BDTP, mental harm can damage your Temperance pool.

Damage: When your Temperance pool is harmd through BDTP, it represents mental and psychological damage, including loss of mental stability. Your Temperance pool-harmd character could have angry fits, have difficulty concentrating and will often damage their own creations.

Healing Damage:  To heal Temperance harm, your character needs counselling (via Presence or Socialise check performed on the character) by someone who can restore their sense of inner peace and help them work through their psychological issues. The harm is healed according to their success level. If all of your harm is of a higher level that their success level, then nothing is healed, and healing cannot be tried again in the same scene.

VALOR
Definition: This reflects your bravery, impulsiveness, chutzpah, derring-do and physical prowess. 

Pool Refresh: You refresh your Valor through performing bold, immediate actions that have a physical component, such as challenging the wrestling champion to a fight, climbing the palace wall with a rose clenched between your teeth to woe the prince, or making love to the most hard-to-please courtesan in the city. Your character must initiate this action and it must be the only thing they do for a scene.

Resistance: Physical attacks can be resisted by your Endurance skill. In BDTP, physical harm can damage your Valor pool.

Damage: When your Valor pool is harmed through BDTP, it represents physical damage and  psycholical damage where you become cowardly, hesistant or 'lose your nerve' for action.

Healing Harm: To heal Valor harm, your character may need a Medicene check performed on them by a chirugeon, or counselling (via Presence or Socialise check performed on the character) where the character must confront whatever made them lose their edge or instilled them with fear.  The harm is healed according to their success level. If all of your harm is of a higher level that their success level, then nothing is healed, and healing cannot be tried again in the same scene.

SKILLS
Skills are linked to each Virtue Pool in the following manner:

Compassion:  Dodge, Integrity (Social Resistance), Medicine, Performance, Ride, Socialise
Conviction: Bureaucracy, Investigation, Larceny, Martial Arts, Presence (Psychological/Emotional Resistance), Survival
Temperance: Archery, Awareness, Craft, Lore (Mental Resistance), Occult, Stealth
Valor:  Athletics, Endurance (Physical Resistance), Melee, Sail, Throw, War

[Filip Luszczyk]

Pools (besides Compassion) seem very easy to refresh to me. Keep in mind that in TSoY refreshing them requires an equivalent of 'resting' (at least if I interprete the rules correctly). Limiting pool refreshment to, say, one point per scene (erm... without stunt? ;)) could solve the problem.

Also, consider using Performance as one of the 'healing skills'.