Capes play and judgementalism in general

[Andrew Cooper]

Sindyr,

You're still equating two things that aren't the same.  You seem to like doing that a lot.

I'm going to bow out of any more dialogue with you on this subject and let Tony deal with it, if he cares to.  It's become obvious to me from reading this and other threads that you are being intentionally obdurate and no amount of actual debate will ever sway you in your opinion.  I've got better things to do with my time than pound my head against that wall.  I'll stick to just the threads on actual rules and play.

[Sindyr]

Burning one's hand on a hot stove is not the only way to learn not to do that.

We aren't even talking about the same thing here.  Of course you don't have to burn yourself on a hot stove to learn that it's hot.  It's not even remotely like what I was talking about.  Let me give an example...

You:  I prefer Peach Pie to Apple Pie.
Me:  Have you even eaten Apple Pie?
You:  No.  But I've seen people eat Apple Pie and it doesn't look good.  I prefer Peach.

Nope, you have misrepresented what I have said.  The correction follows:
You:  I prefer Peach Pie to Apple Pie.
Me:  Have you even eaten Apple Pie?
You:  No.  But I have eaten apples, and I don't like them.  I prefer Peach.

Your football example above is closer to what I'm saying.  At least in it you are basing your preference on some relevant experience.  You don't like pain.  You don't like to sweat.  You don't like physical exhaustion.  You don't like some of the components of football, so you don't like football.  Fine.  I still think it's bullshit but that's up to you.  At least it's based on some experience.  I don't like any of those things either but I still like football because the activity is more than the sum of its component parts.

I think you should pay special attention to where I said "Given my aversion to pain, sweat, and exhaustion, as well as several other factors, I do not think it necessary for me to go experience football before I conclude that it isn't for me."

[Sindyr]

Sindyr,

You're still equating two things that aren't the same.  You seem to like doing that a lot.

I'm going to bow out of any more dialogue with you on this subject and let Tony deal with it, if he cares to.  It's become obvious to me from reading this and other threads that you are being intentionally obdurate and no amount of actual debate will ever sway you in your opinion.  I've got better things to do with my time than pound my head against that wall.  I'll stick to just the threads on actual rules and play.

I think you are banging you head against the wall of your own blind spot, even so, your choice to abandon the discussion makes sense.

[Sindyr]

No we are not.  We are talking about someone who could choose to do something, and doesn't, because its not fun.

Wasn't that always what we were talking about?

No, it wasn't.  You originally asked:

Is someone who can play golf well inferior to some who can play golf *and* tennis well?

Actually, I think even before that I asked is someone who chooses to play Capes differently inferior because of that choice, or words to that effect.  I believe the golf question was in the context of the goal of the thread to start with.

My answer remains:  Yes, all other things (including skill at golf, sportsmanship and sex appeal) being equal, someone who can play golf and tennis is a better athlete than someone who can only play golf.

Likewise, all other things being equal, someone who can play inviolate and vulnerable characters is a better roleplayer than someone who can only play inviolate.

OK, this I can agree with you on, I think.  In fact, I am pretty sure we agree on this point.  However, there are 2 gotchas:
1)  All other things are never equal.  There are always factors that change or are different.  So whereas hypothetically one person can be said to be a better roleplayer, in actuality no such statement can be made, because the being compared are different in many ways, and any one or group of those ways is valid to use to deinfe what in your opinion or in mine make a roleplayer better than another.
2)  I am someone who can play inviolate and vulnerable characters - but I am also someone who chooses to play only inviolate ones.  Therefor, all other things being equal, the only difference is not what I *can* play, but what I *choose* to play.  And that is precisely what my point at the beginning of this thread is:  One is not better or worse for chosing to play a game a certain way.  One is only more effective or less effective at reaping fun from it.

[joshua neff]

Sindyr,

You can obviously play Capes with whatever house rules and modifications you want. Obviously, the RPG Police won't come to your door and haul you away. Obviously, Tony won't show up and your house and kick your cat because you didn't play the game the way he wrote it.

But if you think you--or me, or anyone else--can post in the official Capes forum about playing with modified rules and not be judged--and possibly questioned, pushed, prodded, and maybe even scorned--then you're being silly. By posting in this forum, you are inviting people to question you, to judge you, to push you and prod you. And as the creator of the game, you shouldn't be surprised at all if Tony says, "You're playing how? Well, I personally don't think you should play it that way, and if you do, you're on your own. Don't expect official support." Heck, I've seen other game designers say similar things when people talk about changing the rules of their game.

If you feel like you're being put in the spotlight--you are. You've walked into a public forum. In public forums, people are judged, questioned, pushed and prodded by their peers. All things are not equal. All opinions are not equal. And if Tony or anyone else gives you a reaction that bothers you...you can always ignore them. But you can't post here--and neither can I--without being judged.

[Sindyr]

Joshua -

spot on!  As far as I can see, you are exactly right. 

We are all judged by others, every time we open our mouths.

My point is not that it doesn't happen, but that one should never claim that someone who enjoys diverse games is superior to one who enjoys fewer.  And one should also never claim that what one find fun makes one superior to someone who finds something else fun.

Some judgements are necessary, some are asked for, and some, even if unasked for, must be made.

And some should not be.

If I post how much I like bubblegum ice cream over vanilla, any who judge me inferior or lacking, or at fault, are simply wrong to do so.

That's all

[joshua neff]

Joshua -

spot on!  As far as I can see, you are exactly right. 

We are all judged by others, every time we open our mouths.

My point is not that it doesn't happen, but that one should never claim that someone who enjoys diverse games is superior to one who enjoys fewer.  And one should also never claim that what one find fun makes one superior to someone who finds something else fun.

Some judgements are necessary, some are asked for, and some, even if unasked for, must be made.

And some should not be.

If I post how much I like bubblegum ice cream over vanilla, any who judge me inferior or lacking, or at fault, are simply wrong to do so.

That's all

Then you've missed my point.

[Sindyr]

Than you haven't made it yet.

[dunlaing]

You can obviously play Capes with whatever house rules and modifications you want. Obviously, the RPG Police won't come to your door and haul you away. Obviously, Tony won't show up and your house and kick your cat because you didn't play the game the way he wrote it.

Depends where Sindyr lives. I tried to play Capes with a GM and Tony came over and kicked my cat. She still runs into the basement whenever someone knocks on the door.

[Eric Sedlacek]

Depends where Sindyr lives. I tried to play Capes with a GM and Tony came over and kicked my cat. She still runs into the basement whenever someone knocks on the door.

But then again that could be because Tony really enjoys kicking cats.  He keeps bugging me to get a cat just so he can come over and kick it.  He's judgemental that way.

[joshua neff]

Than you haven't made it yet.

No, you've missed it. It's not the same thing.

My point was: posting here, you will be judged, perhaps even harshly. You will be questioned, interrogated--you may even be insulted. This is not a safe place, for anyone. Claiming "It's my opinion!" or "It's my personal preference!" or "It's my taste!" does not negate discussion or even denegration.

[greyorm]

Than you haven't made it yet.

We get it: you are right, and everyone else is a fucking moron when they claim you have failed to see any point they might have made, as you have made apparent in responses to Gaerik, Josh, myself and others -- responses like the above -- you never fail to understand anyone else, not like everyone else misunderstands you.

Tony, as a public service, put a stop to this already; it should be obvious at this juncture that you have two bear-pits on your hands.

[TonyLB]

Hey, Joshua ... if someone insults Sindyr then I'm gonna be all over it like ugly on an ape.

If somebody says that his arguments are stupid and juvenile, on the other hand, I got no problem with that.

[TonyLB]

Tony, as a public service, put a stop to this already; it should be obvious at this juncture that you have two bear-pits on your hands.

Rev., you're acting like I have a problem with bear-pits.  On the contrary, I find these threads immensely entertaining and amusing.

It's an internet forum.  Unless people are sporting a new "USB Punch-in-the-nose adapter" that I haven't heard about, nobody's gonna get hurt.  You want to avoid getting tangled in the rhetoric?  Just steer clear of the threads.

A while ago I was worried that Sindyr was going to stifle other people's ability to express themselves by grinding his axes in threads where folks were doing productive work, but he's steered clear of that, so I got no beef.

[joshua neff]

Hey, Joshua ... if someone insults Sindyr then I'm gonna be all over it like ugly on an ape.

If somebody says that his arguments are stupid and juvenile, on the other hand, I got no problem with that.

Yeah, that's what I meant. But it seems like Sindyr doesn't see a difference between "insult me" and "insult my argument" or "insult the way I play."