[TSoY] - Exalted, with Mixed Results

[Belinda K.]

I ran my first TSoY/Exalted game last night, with mixed results. Here are my observations.

In this group, I've got four players - B, K, S and N.
*B is a pretty much a go-with-the-flow player, she'll dramatise and have fun, but she always goes in the direction of things with the story.
*N is hard-core systems-cruncher and in depth characterisation-type. He likes systems with a lot of strategic elements.
*S has a heavy D&D background, but builds and characterises her characters well.
*K likes knowing all the cards on the table before she moves, and builds characters that she relates strongly to and doesn't like it when they're mucked around with.

Conversion to TSoY from Heroic Mortal Exalted was relatively quick, although there some grumbles from K that I'd broken her character, especially with the lack of skill points you get between a starting TSoY char and a starting Exalted char. I pointed out that 2 dots in TSoY was still really good. My conversion links skills to Exalted virtue pools (e.g. Compassion, Conviction, Temperance and Valour) as opposed to having the TSoY skills linked to their default Vigor, Instinct and Reason pools, and K had a bit of problems with the mapping, but overall it went realtively okay.

BDTP - In our first scene, the group was hiding out in a barn while being threated by a Dragon-Blooded (a dude with elemental magic) and a lot of mook troops, calling them out: "Demons! Stop hiding! Come out!"

S went out and challenged the DB, and won in a resisted Presence roll after some dialogue. N persuaded her to go into BDTP on him to see what it was like. So then we had a round by round dialogue, and the Dragon-Blood backed down, having been Bloodied with social wounds. There was a bit of a confusion about the initative order in BDTP - it went:

a) S wins with a resisted Presence check over the Dragon-Blooded.
b) S Brings Down the Pain. She's got three bonus dice in the first round due to her victory in the resisted presence check.
c) First BDTP round: Dialogue, resisted Presence check. The Dragon-Blooded takes 3 levels of harm and is cowering. (He should have only taken Harm at level 3, rather than levels 1-3, I realised later).
d) Second BDTP round: Here - N, playing a compassionate character, wants to interrupt and help the poor Dragon-Blooded. Who gets to act first? N? S? The DB? I said it went Winner of Last BDTP round > Other previous round participants > New People, but I wasn't sure. If N had been able to interrupt before S's section action, he could have pulled off his challenge more fluidly.

General Dice Rolling - "No matter what you roll, you only get +3 on the dice," K observed after watching all the home made Fudge dice come up green, especially after hefty stunt dice pumping from other players. N pointed out you add your skill values to it, but I don't think she likes the low probability range of the system.

When B failed an action to save a little girl and got -2 on her Athletics, I let K run and complete the action, but still rolling with the -2 penalty (that got quickly negated by PCs chucking stunt dice on the roll, kind of like building a kitty before poker).  I later realised a roll maxes out at 0, it should only have been 1 penalty die, but this scene worked well.

Keys - N and S quickly worked out how to trigger their keys fairly quickly. B was a bit slow to warm up, but eventually at the end of the game intitiated a Valor refresh action to save a child, which also helped get her XP for her key of the Conscience. K had the Key of Fraternity with B, and was slowly racking up XP in each scene, and got some more when she risked herself to save B, who initially failed to save the girl.

I did it as per the book where the PCs tell me how much XP they're racking up as they ping Keys. K, S and B thought this was a bit distracting from the roleplaying. (We had a similar problem when we tried out Wushu as well, which gives you a die for each detail you describe, and the constant counting of details to rack up dice distracted from the attempt to simply 'say what your character was doing'.)

Stunt (Gift) dice - The idea is that when players give themselves a dice from their pools, they have to do stunt - an interesting, cool or detailed description that provides a bit of colour. Other players were awarding stunt/gift dice as they saw fit. When N got two stunt dice from other players, he insisted on provided a description in two parts - one for each die.  When rolls were critical, PCs happily piled on the stunt dice for each other. "We can't afford to fail this roll," someone observed as they tried to make a warding sign on the barn as undead scrabbled around outside. I think this part on the whole worked.

Overall, TSoY got bit of a mixed reception. S and B liked that it was simpler than Exalted, but it's a bit hard to tell after just one system when we're still learning the rules.

S's main complaint was that the system 'got in the way of the roleplaying'. Her background was D&D, which doesn't have rules for reinforcing characterisation, like TSoY's Keys and Pool refreshes. Her problem was she would be going around doing stuff in TSoY that the system would reward (via Keys/Pool refreshes), but it may not have been stuff that her character would have done if those in-system reinforcements weren't there. For example, S had Key of the Lost Child and a lot of her dialogue was about saying: "In my homeland, we have a different custom..." but if she only a flat XP award at the end of the session, she wouldn't have been saying that so often. Whereas B and K were doing a bit more 'in character stuff' due to the key system, and N was setting up scenes tactically so he could bring home the bacon.

And S was saying that PCs would simply be running around refreshing their pools and doing Key stuff, rewarded by the system, whereas if those in-system benefits weren't there, they would be 'less restricted' to play their characters. I pointed out that this was how the system worked, and B intiatied an action to save a child, where as in vanilla Exalted, she would have just been going with the flow, her usual RP mode. I guess I'll see in another session or so if these mechanics become invisible or continue to impair S's realisation of how her character would act.

S also didn't like BDTP - in that first encounter, she would have preferred a long IC dialogue with the DB, and then maybe a quick roll or GM Fiat to decide the option. The entire round by round mode 'combat system' mode didn't sit well for her. I said it was up to her whether she initiated it or not.

Again, it was only the first session of TSoY exalted, so we'll see where it goes from there! To sum up, the problems were:

a) Determining initiative order in multi-combatant BDTP.
b) Key XP counting by players distracting from roleplaying. (One complaint that BDTP distracts from roleplaying as well, when used in Social Combat mode).
c) S's complaint that the Keys/Pool Refreshes force her to play her character a certain way, where she'd rather 'the freedom' to do it how she likes without system reinforcement.

[Judd]

b) Key XP counting by players distracting from roleplaying. (One complaint that BDTP distracts from roleplaying as well, when used in Social Combat mode).

b) I have a bowl of beady things in the middle of the table and the players just take 'em when they hit their keys.  Generally, they kind of ask at first, then it is a little moment of eye contact and then about 3/4's of the way through the session they are just on their own, taking XP like mad.

[charles ferguson]

Hiya Belinda!

How was it to run? Did you have any exectations going in?

Interesting!

[Frank T]

Hi Belinda,

I don't know if you've done yourself a good service by converting characters from Exalted to TSoY. Especially if at least some of the players generally like the original Exalted system. It's only natural that they would then reject the new approach. Like that nonsense about possibility ranges.

The "impairment of roleplaying" by having roll-heavy social conflicts is practically the standard criticism of most traditional gamers against Forge-style games. TSoY is still pretty light on that, though. I suggest that you as GM don't call for a roll as often as possible, but rather just have a roll when you would in Exalted, too, unless a player asks for a roll sooner. You might even give the player a bonus dice or two if she delivers a good performance. If the player loses, she can just accept the loss and doesn't have to enter into Bringing Down the Pain. As far as I can tell from the one TSoY game I played so far, I personally wouldn't want to Bring Down the Pain more than once or twice a session.

As for the part with the Keys and Pool Refreshment dictating what happens: Well, it doesn't have to be that way all of the time. You can do something else as players. I mean, did they just do what gains XP in normal Exalted? What would that be, anyway? The good thing about the Keys is that they make interesting things happen, things that are interesting to the players. Maybe you can suggest to her that next time she finds something interesting and would like to explore it, she could take a Key to reflect that.

- Frank

[rafial]

a) Determining initiative order in multi-combatant BDTP.

Er, there is no initiative.  None, zilch, nada

At the beginning of a round, everybody describes what their character is doing to achieve their intent, and who they are acting against... at this point you are in "free and clear" ... everybody is free to change their statement of action in reaction to one another.  Just negotiate until everybody is comfortable with their stated actions.  Nothing is "locked in" til you are done with this.

Only then roll the dice.  Figure out, based on the dice rolls what actually happened.

You might want to review this section of the TSOY rules for more clarification.

[James_Nostack]

S's main complaint was that the system 'got in the way of the roleplaying' . . . Her problem was she would be going around doing stuff in TSoY that the system would reward (via Keys/Pool refreshes), but it may not have been stuff that her character would have done if those in-system reinforcements weren't there. For example, S had Key of the Lost Child and a lot of her dialogue was about saying: "In my homeland, we have a different custom..." but if she only a flat XP award at the end of the session, she wouldn't have been saying that so often.

As far as I can tell, that's a feature, not a bug: in this kind of "pumpkin fantasy" story, the 'exchange student character' is always saying stuff like that.  While I sympathize with S that she found it tedious, the choice of Keys was hers (right?), she can sell it off any time she likes (right?), in theory she can come up with different ways to trigger it ("Looking at the two friends together makes me yearn for the friends I'll never see again, etc."), and she can get more Keys to vary her characterization.  So, there are some options, assuming she finds the different philosophy tolerable.

Actually, I am very curious to learn K's reaction.  Based on your description of her priorities, I would have thought SOY would be a bad fit for her.

[Judd]

Belinda,

Could you do me a favor and describe two or three pool refresh scenes, how they were initiated and how they happened at the table?

Thanks,

Judd

[Belinda K.]

How was it to run? Did you have any exectations going in?

Hi Charles - I was hoping that the game would be fairly smooth and straightforward, but it was a bit more awkward than I'd expected. Plus I was hoping that the players would have fun with it and it would support a game that would allow players to push at the story and try cool stuff. There were some elements of that, thankfully!

I don't know if you've done yourself a good service by converting characters from Exalted to TSoY. Especially if at least some of the players generally like the original Exalted system. It's only natural that they would then reject the new approach. Like that nonsense about possibility ranges.

I had troubles running the Exalted combat system and K and B also had problems grokking it; most combats coming down a confused mess of instructions from N. So, hence my attempt to move to a simpler system that we could all understand.  It was the first time I've ever playtested TSoY and there were some problems regarding the changeover.

I do like your advice regarding not rolling until necessary (as per Ron's mantra about only rolling dice if there's a conflict of interest). I had another comment by N who didn't like the one roll resolving the entire conflict, as he said it removed removed drama (but I understood that was what BDTP was for?)

As for the part with the Keys and Pool Refreshment dictating what happens: Well, it doesn't have to be that way all of the time. You can do something else as players. I mean, did they just do what gains XP in normal Exalted? What would that be, anyway? The good thing about the Keys is that they make interesting things happen, things that are interesting to the players. Maybe you can suggest to her that next time she finds something interesting and would like to explore it, she could take a Key to reflect that.

With Exalted, I just gave them a flat XP rate at the end of each session, decided on an ad hoc basis.  The Key XP thing is mainly S's concern. Aside from her 'it removes roleplaying options by forcing the characters down a path' comment, another thing she mentioned was it would reduce teamwork. S's big thing in RPG's is teamwork and having the players work together as a group to achieve a goal, and her point with the Key system would be it would make the PCs be competitive with each other about who could rack up the most XP by triggering their keys, rather than if they'd worked together to achieve something and then got a share of the XP.  (It's probably something from her D&D background, I reckon). Maybe make up a 'Key of Teamwork' for her? Discuss with the group her worries about the Key system making the group competitive rather than co-operative?

Er, there is no initiative.  None, zilch, nada

At the beginning of a round, everybody describes what their character is doing to achieve their intent, and who they are acting against... at this point you are in "free and clear" ... everybody is free to change their statement of action in reaction to one another.  Just negotiate until everybody is comfortable with their stated actions.  Nothing is "locked in" til you are done with this.

Sure, but I wasn't sure how how to run it, as per my example.

*S wanted to talk down the Dragon-Blooded.
*N wanted to interrupt S's action, by talking to the Dragon-Blooded in a supportive manner.
*The Dragon-Blooded want to continue to accuse S of being a demon in disguise.

So would that be S rolling against the DB, N rolling to suppor the DB and the DB rolling vs S?

While I sympathize with S that she found it tedious, the choice of Keys was hers (right?), she can sell it off any time she likes (right?), in theory she can come up with different ways to trigger it ("Looking at the two friends together makes me yearn for the friends I'll never see again, etc."), and she can get more Keys to vary her characterization.  So, there are some options, assuming she finds the different philosophy tolerable.

Actually, I am very curious to learn K's reaction.  Based on your description of her priorities, I would have thought SOY would be a bad fit for her.

During a follow-up chat with S, she also mentioned the introduced competitiveness that she thought the Key system would bring that she didn't like. I think it is just how she's used to playing games, and that's a different approach for her. It wasn't that she couldn't up with different ways to apply the keys, but rather that they 'rewarded' you for playing a character one way, as opposed to 'any way you liked'. And that goal-based stuff and XP accumulation is a big thing about gaming for her - she wants to earn XP, rather than just simply wanting to play the character anyway she liked and occaisionally ping keys. So she'll play to ping her keys, do it well, and not feel good about it because she's 'being competitive' and 'limiting her roleplaying to key pinging'. 

K still bit grumbly about the game, but that's also due to my rather mis-management of the group in game as well. I could sense that S wasn't buying into it and gave her more attention when I should have been focusing on the entire group! K's quite happy to do a second session with TSoY - she said that we couldn't tell anything from the first run. Once she got her head around the Key system, she liked it as it rewarded her for being a side kick.

Could you do me a favor and describe two or three pool refresh scenes, how they were initiated and how they happened at the table?

Sure thing, Judd.

B wanted to refresh her Valor pool, so she (I think with N's help), improvised a scene. It was night, the undead were rising from the ground, and the only thing that kept the villagers safe were the rings of rock salt around their huts. A little girl had wandered outside a salt ring, looking for a lost toy, and there were undead things grasping for her. B charged into to rescue the little girl and thrust her back over the salt ring, but failed her Atheltics check, getting a -2. However, for her Valourous action, was able to refresh her Valour pool. (Then K charged in, pinging her Key of Fraternity with B by saving B and getting her and the little girl into the salt circle).

I think that was the only pool refresh actively tried in the game.

[Frank T]

Maybe make up a 'Key of Teamwork' for her?

Now you've got the vibe. :-)

Well. S is still right: TSoY is not made for old school D&D-style party play. I would suggest to her to try and go along with the new approach for a while to see how she likes it after a few more sessions. The game is not only more "rules lite", it is a different game entirely.

- Frank

[R. Jason Boss]

I'm not sure I understand.  "It wasn't that she couldn't up with different ways to apply the keys, but rather that they 'rewarded' you for playing a character one way, as opposed to 'any way you liked'."  She chose her keys herself, right?

Perhaps she might want to reconsider her choices of Keys based on her experiences of actual play.  Seems kinda like the old complaint about alignment being a straightjacket in D&D, when in fact the player not only gets to choose based on how they want to play the character, but can in moments of difficult choice act otherwise.  Of course, there may be drawbacks to this (changing alignment, need for Atonement, not gaining XP from pinging the Key) but one's Keys as I understand them should be things the player is pretty solid on wanting to play out most of the time, right? 

I might be off base with this chicken or egg sort of musing, but I'm interested as I also have a group interested in playing Exalted and am myself pretty disinterested in running the game's ruleset (which tangentially they aren't that interested in anyway, they just want non-D&D fantasy with Exalteds sort of color and happen to be familiar with WW gaming).  So I'm definitely going to be following your experiences here!

Good luck and thanks for posting!
Jason

[rafial]

Sure, but I wasn't sure how how to run it, as per my example.

*S wanted to talk down the Dragon-Blooded.
*N wanted to interrupt S's action, by talking to the Dragon-Blooded in a supportive manner.
*The Dragon-Blooded want to continue to accuse S of being a demon in disguise.

So would that be S rolling against the DB, N rolling to suppor the DB and the DB rolling vs S?

Well, that's a good question, and I could see a couple different ways to handle this, based on fine points of intent, which is why negotiating this out in Free and Clear is so important.  I'm assuming when you say "wanted to talk down" that S was attempting to reject DB's accusations in an insulting/condescending manner.  So, interpreting wildly, I see something like

* S wants to a) dismiss the accusations and b) put the DB in his/her place by lording over them.
* DB wants make a convincing accusation that S is a demon in disguise

That much is a straightforward perpendicular action.  Now here's where it gets interesting.  What is meant by "talking to the Dragon-Blooded in a supportive manner"?  If N wants to support the DBs agenda (that S is a demon) then the arrangement you suggest above would be perfect.  However I suspect that N wanted force a change in the tone of dialogue (i.e. treat the DB in a respectful manner) but not to support the notion that S is a demon.

So in this case, N is really acting against S, as a parallel action.  Now this is sort of what I would expect to see happening during Free and Clear:

S: I'm going to smack down that uppity DB.  Imagine accusing me of being a demon
DB: He's totally a demon, I can prove it.
N: Wait, hey, we need to treat DB with more respect.  I'm entering the BDTP against you S to get you to back down.
GM: Okay, that'll be a parallel action.
S: What!?  How can you do that?  I'll take harm!  I have to defend myself.
N: Well, if you change approach to indicate a more respectful approach I won't do it then.

* at which point one of two things can happen *

S: alright, alright, my intent is still to deny the accusation, but I'm treating the DB with respect
(roll, S vs DB)

*or*

S: no way!  This punk needs to be shown his place.
(each player rolls once, S's roll is compared vs DB's, N's is unresisted since it is a parallel action, and deals harm to S)

Now the harm dealt to S by N can easily be seen as a loss of face from having your own teammate trying to talk you down.  S can give in to N at any point, and grant N's intent (a more moderate tone).  Or S can stick to his guns, and risk getting broken, and losing to both intents.

But the main point I think is that in this case, the decision of S to back down falls out during free and clear, either right away, or in a later round by S giving to N's intent.

[John Harper]

Another way to do it would be sequential conflicts.

First, N and S have a social conflict to determine how S will treat the DB. If N wins, S is convinced to treat the DB with some respect (how S is convinced -- threats, trickery, shamed into it -- is determined by actions in the conflict). If S wins, she can be all haughty with the DB. Then you do the DB vs. S conflict about the demon-accusation.

Like Wil said, you don't *have* to go to the dice with S and N. They could just "roleplay it" (god how I hate that phrase) and come to an agreement about how S will act. If there is genuine conflict between the *characters*, though, TSOY does provide a system-supported method to resolve it, which is really fun to use even if the *players* aren't having a disagreement about what happens.

[rafial]

Another way to do it would be sequential conflicts.

Good suggestion.  I believe in Belinda's case, the BDTP was already "in progress" when N joined, but I don't see any reason why you couldn't have a quick "sub-conflict" between N & S and then resume the BDTP between S and DB.  I also see these two approaches having a different "feel" in terms of the imagined situation.  In my approach, when is N incorporated into the ongoing BDTP, it's a three way shouting match.  In John's suggestion, S starts to come down on DB, N pulls S aside for a quick heated consultation, and then the interaction with DB resumes.

The overall point remains the same though.  Many things that are resolved through iniative in other games are worked out in the free and clear phase in TSOY.  And if you really do need to answer the question "who has the faster reaction time" well then that's an opposed test of React.

[DevP]

Hi Belinda. This is interesting to me; I've read but not played TSOY, and I've seen some similar things to S when playing Dogs in the Vineyard.

In my experience, some players really just do prefer to talk out a conflict in character, rather than going immediatley to the dice, and that line is particular to each group (and in my experience, tricky to pin down). And indeed, I found that some players in the same group were okay with doing blow-by-blow social conflicts via the dice, and others prefered to stay in talking mode. So my guess is that your group may prefer to BDTP a bit less for social things; absolutely follow the lead of your group here.

As for the Keys/Pools stuff, that's tricker, because I can understand how those seem to get in the way of how she's roleplaying. My take on the Keys/XP thing was that the Keys acted more or less like a rubric for how you're progressing, and that progress is measured in the XP earned. But that "progress" is subjective and voluntary. Her character doesn't have to keep pinging her keys if she doesn't want to take her there, and I definitely think that's okay. (Does TSOY have much in the way of needing characters to "keep up" with each other, in terms of advancement?)

If she still hads trouble after the second session, some possible tweaks could make the system less front-loaded for her.
* Add a minimum XP gain linked to the other players, so you can keep up even if you're not pinging your keys specifically all the time.
* Let her worry about the Key pinging after the session, i.e once the session is done, she can look at her keys and guestimate where and how often she figured she hit them. The Keys can still fuel XP gain, but she doesn't have to keep them in the front of her mind in the moment.
* Pool refreshes: allow for retroactively justified pool refreshes, if the moment allows for it. That is, she can flash back to a pool-refreshing conflict she'd already done in character before. So if she'd made a point of carousing with people previously, she can call on that for a pool refresh later. This is a big tweak, but it could help her feel less like she has to consciously alter her character's choices to fit into her player-mechanical needs.

(How useful are these ideas? I'd appreciate the advice of those with more TSOY experience.)

[Valamir]

I think one of the problems that folks might have in getting into the mindset of keys is in thinking of them in terms of Backgrounds...this is how my character was.  Instead keys are all about this is how the character is right now...these are the absolute most important features of my character's personality...today.

In other words, just because the character was a "lost child" doesn't mean she needs to have the KEY of "lost child".  Alot of people are in the habit of using "backgrounds" and "advantages" or "traits" as a way of defining their character.  i.e. "oh my character is far away and estranged from her home land so I need to take the "lost child" background to show that.  Instead TSOY takes a bit of an adjustment in that she should only take that as a key if she really WANTS to be hitting those points on a regular basis.  If not select a key that more closely matches what she does want the character to be doing on a regular basis today.