Space Pirates

[Oscar Evans]

*sigh* Lets try that again (Wish you could edit these things): Space Pirates Design Document

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

I imagined the ships running on nuclear power (that's why I didn't think about fuel.)

Not to knock on this belief, but nuclear power by itself won't push a starship around. Sure, you could handwave fuel issues away for the sake of expedience, but I can't think of even a fanciful design that can move a ship in vacuum without flinging something out the back end.

A nuclear rocket would likely be throwing out helium or water vapor or something else with a high specific impulse for the nuclear reaction's temperature. (Again, I call out for physicists with the hard numbers!)

Now, you might could have something like a "gravity drive" (i.e. handwave) that uses only electrical output from a generator (nuke-steam, whatever) to push and pull against gravity wells. But that's going to make the "fights in deep, dark space lanes" unlikely. Which really makes the MOST sense, if you have FTL craft: no one would be spending any time in normal space between destinations anyway. All piracy happens between, say, the Oort cloud of a system and its destination planets/habitats, and it tends to prey upon in-system transport craft rather than out-system liners.

But then again... is the FTL "works anywhere, works every time"? If so, you can just treat the whole maneuvering and attack elements as short FTL hops. It would be kind of cool to play a space battle game where most/all participant craft are actually at zero relative velocity but are popping all over the map with micro-FTL jumps. :)

Managing it as a separate variable from energy would probably just make combat even more ponderous.
...
Haha. You both have wonderful ideas. You are very good at making my game more complicated.

First, let me say that I will clam up at a single request. I am just trying to consider all the raw elements of how I imagine space battles to be conducted, and toss them out there to be caught or left to flop on the deck like a decompression victim.

Disclaimer aside, I don't think using fuel as a limiter would be hard at all. Consider:
1) Make it a rule that a ship power system will always output its full power. Remember that any unused power may be shunted into batteries, becoming single-use (different color) tokens to place at will (as opposed to the main color token, which show allocations to systems that might be shuffled to other systems, from round to round).
2) From that full power output value and some other "fuel load" value of the ship, simple division will determine how many "full rounds" in which a ship may engage before running dry. That become a mere round counter, in actual play.
3) Include a (minor) rule and ship stat that calculates how many power tokens will make a ship do a jump (its mass and "FTL rating" probably determines this cost). That should just be a fixed amount, unless you want jump distances to become a power-consumption issue (and can explain why that is, in your dimension-breaking FTL drive!).

That should do it. Basically, fuel load become a pre-play ship stat like "stamina" that (by rule dictation that the engines always output full power) is always the same in every battle for that ship. Thus, it isn't really managed at all: only the battery-use rules are needed. And I have shown already how they can be simplified by only dealing with banked tokens, not every token generated every round. In other words, simple management by exception.

The "running dry" issues only come up if (a) the turn counter for the ship runs out and (b) it does not have enough banked power tokens (battery juice) to effect an FTL jump to escape.

...And you done gone and opened the FTL door. It has its own funkiness to consider: can a ship be followed through FTL? Or is it impossible to gauge how far along a known vector a particular ship has jumped (I suggest this latter case be true, to avoid creating no-win situations).

Heheh... OK, OK, I'll read the design doc, now. Any advice as to how we should read it? Still tinkering, or read for coherence, or just copyedit?
David

[Oscar Evans]

Which really makes the MOST sense, if you have FTL craft: no one would be spending any time in normal space between destinations anyway.

The game would be real boring if they travelled between systems without FTL! :)

All piracy happens between, say, the Oort cloud of a system and its destination planets/habitats, and it tends to prey upon in-system transport craft rather than out-system liners.

Yeah. Only maybe slightly INSIDE the Oort cloud. In order to make it to the planets in any reasonable amount of time from the edge of the Oort cloud, the players would need to be travelling at an insane speed. No human has the reaction speed to pull of manouvers at that speed, and if we give control the computer it removes meaningful player choice. In fact, this is even the case if the players wish to travel between planets in-system in any reasonable amount of time. My brother has proposed the idea of an in-system thrusters, seperate from both your inter-system and combat speed thrusters.

Of course. I will probably just give the finger to science and ignore all this.

First, let me say that I will clam up at a single request. I am just trying to consider all the raw elements of how I imagine space battles to be conducted, and toss them out there to be caught or left to flop on the deck like a decompression victim.

No no, go ahead. Im just the same way when giving advice. Some of your advice has been helpful, some hasnt, but all of it has helped me to define my game. Im just worried you might be giving far too much attention to my underdeveloped little game, which might end up still born if i cant figure out a way to pull it off. Like i said earlier- im at somewhat of an impasse, as i am having trouble coming up with a fluid system that achieves all my objectives. Ive tried several different systems, played test games- and none of them really 'strike' me.

Or is it impossible to gauge how far along a known vector a particular ship has jumped

The origional idea was that yes, you can track someone through a jump. You are very vulnerable after a jump though, as it is a serious power drain. This gives your quarry ample oppourunity to run away or blast you.

Heheh... OK, OK, I'll read the design doc, now. Any advice as to how we should read it? Still tinkering, or read for coherence, or just copyedit?

Very early yet. Just giving an overview of my objectives. Obviously i have a few more concrete ideas than that, but im willing to scrap them if i can think of anything that better suits my agenda.

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

In order to make it to the planets in any reasonable amount of time from the edge of the Oort cloud, the players would need to be travelling at an insane speed.

Define "reasonable." Define "insane."

Put differently: if you are going for the flavor of piracy, how about going for the time scales of piracy in our own past? There similarities are there. An FTL jump into a system is a lot like open ocean sailing: no pirate would try to get you on the open ocean, and no space pirate would try to get you in deep space. But once you are in-system, maybe it DOES take a few weeks or months to match velocities with a target planet and get to it. Much like the months of coastline following that a ship might have done, to find their destination port(s).

And don't let reaction speed at high velocities hamper your thinking. Frankly, if a pirate hasn't matched velocity with its target craft, the whole fight is going to be over in a flash, anyway: the target will zip past at such a high relative velocity that the pirate would only get off one shot, which would probably hit because it would be, say, a laser beam laid in the path of the speeding target.

Thus, you can assume any space combat began with a velocity matching period. Then, at zero relative velocity, your notion of "combat thrusters" becomes irrelevant: it's just shifts in relative V to change positions relative to the target. In other words, using the same drive systems (thrust) to maneuver for some form of advantage.

You are very vulnerable after a jump though, as it is a serious power drain. This gives your quarry ample opportunity to run away or blast you.

OK, then you need some system in place for:
a) how hard it is to pin-point someone's jump destination - it shouldn't be automatic; sensor reads of power output and astrogation should be the minimum "checks" to determine what a destination star would be; otherwise, any jump could be any arbitrary distance, which then could include any star on that vector (and there's a LOT of stars on MOST vectors in a galaxy).
b) who recovers faster - could decide the battle in one shot!
c) if there is any way to "outjump" someone - if I get, say, a lightyear or so "lead" on a pursuer, I should be able to change vectors randomly and become, effectively, untrackable.

Current Design Doc Feedback

It is very important that it be balanced, and there be no single superior design or piece of equipment.

Boy, howdy, that's true. And, man, it's gonna be hard to pull off. It is just WAY tricky to avoid the "Ogg Mage Syndrome" - given enough of a player base, the synergies of effects in a game system will inevitable bubble out an optimal combination of effects.

But it is possible to minimize the Ogg Mage Syndrome to the point where there are a couple "Oggy" choices rather than one. And "patching" your system after a while can go a long way toward shaking up old synergies. You could even write and release expansion products which appear to be "new stuff" but are actually "fixes to old stuff" that lead to more balance between effects. ;)

Ideally the story should evolve out of what sort of trouble the players decide to get themselves in.

System, system, system: here's one you can hang on! You mention that "the characters will quickly develop relationships" through the course of play; I suggest that the character creation system START them with some. Call them Obligations, Contacts, Bounties, whatever... basically make a form of disadvantage or flaw system which maps the character into the world from the get-go. EVERYONE owes somebody something, EVERY character has jettisoned some thug's precious cargo or owes the government for their ship and training or stole some planetary ruler's crown jewels to jumpstart their piracy profession.

If you require the players to invent their own "starting issues" then they will not only give you a clear flag as to the style of play they want, but they will also be better able to see if they have conflicting goals and need to, perhaps, rethink some aspects of the character-as-a-group-member. You might even be able to make "metacategories" of these character obligations, and require the players to agree to a single metacategory from which each will choose their individual issue or flaw. Basically, this allows you to circumvent players choosing incompatible issues (like one always has to get groundside to work politics while the other needs very much to be hiding out in the Oort clouds of the galaxy-a classic case of the "Shadowrun Decker's Dilemma").

I am all full of new phrases for old game patterns, today. ;)

It's baking nicely...
David

[Oscar Evans]

Put differently: if you are going for the flavor of piracy, how about going for the time scales of piracy in our own past?

That does make it a lot like real pirates. It might make the game play fractured or sluggish though, and will certainly limit options. 'Okay, 2 months later, you finally arrive at port.' *short scene about them getting repairs and unloading their cargo* 'Right, next we want to go here.' 'Okay, 5 months later you arrive.'

Im looking to make a fast-paced, high stakes, big trouble sort of game. The players constantly jumping from one problem into another, dodging bounty hunters, avoiding other pirates, making shaky deals, taking whatever oppourtunities they can to make a buck. Having long periods of uneventful space-travel would probably break the tension and disturb the time-frame. I mean, if they take on a drug run, how long is the crime boss going to give them before he calls out the thugs? They could have sold it and be half way across the galaxy by then. Their trouble should be able to catch up with them (And they should be able to catch up with their trouble!). Sure, they can hide- but only for so long.

Boy, howdy, that's true. And, man, it's gonna be hard to pull off. It is just WAY tricky to avoid the "Ogg Mage Syndrome" - given enough of a player base, the synergies of effects in a game system will inevitable bubble out an optimal combination of effects.

True, but i dont expect to have a huge player base. I just want it balanced to the point that the players cant go 'Well that sucks, obviously if you just do x you dont need anything else'. If i keep to a few variables that shouldnt be too hard. Of course, that also limits player choice! Argh.

OK, then you need some system in place for...

a) Yes, the idea is that it takes a few minutes to track someones destination. This gives them their lead on powering up again after the jump.
b) That would probably be based on the consumption of your jump drive and/or the output of your generator.
c) The idea is that you cannot change direction mid-jump. Even if you jump a short distance, it still takes a while to power up your jump drive again.
You could, if you had a sufficient lead, jump once, then make another before your persuer arrives. There would be no way to track that.

This is balance issues though. Ill figure something out, whatever works best.

EVERYONE owes somebody something

I was actually thinking about this last night and thats exactly what i came up with! All players start with a debt of some sort. It might be anything from a bounty or gambling debt to a debt to your family for financing your ship. If they dont get themselves into further trouble trying to pay it off, then they get into trouble (of one sort or another) with their creditors!

In my test game, i started them off with their cargo holds full of an illicit substance they needed to get rid of. Not technically a 'debt' but definately a big Trouble Magnet.

the character-as-a-group-member.

Now this is something i had problems with in the initial game. The players ended up separating! I want to encourage independence and oppourtunism, as thats what piracy is all about. Just not the point that i need to run 4 different games.

One solution to this is just to stick them on the one ship. But this would mean that either...
A. They would be lead around by the nose by the 'biggest ego' of the group. This is something i dislike in roleplaying games, i see it happen all the time. Since there is only one ship to make descisions about, if they arent led around by a big ego they will probably spend their time arguing.
B. It would focus the game on character skills, so that they each have a role within the ship (engineer, doctor, tactical, security, etc) and thus can each contribute equally. Character skill is something i wanted to de-emphasize in space combat, and this would turn that entirely on its head. It does have the advantage of specialization though, something which my system might be lacking (Hrrm, something to consider!).

The other option is to tie them all together with a plot mechanic. I tired to do this in the test game by tying them to their mutual interest in their cargo, but that didnt work. That also limits peoples chances to come up with really interesting and unique debts.

This is another area where 'making it like real pirates' probably doesnt fit.


Anyway. Ive come up with a few new ideas on how to manage ship design, energy management etc (You know, the technical stuff). Ill write something up later and give it a bit of a test. Lets hope this one isnt painfully bloated as well.

[Kobayashi]

Now this is something i had problems with in the initial game. The players ended up separating! I want to encourage independence and opportunism, as that's what piracy is all about. Just not the point that i need to run 4 different games.

Maybe favoring "well rounded" ship design is not the key. Allowing players to have very specialised ships "stealth", "dogfighter", "interceptor", "ramming"... and allow them to have one pool of points for all their ships might help. None of them can take another ship alone.

Shields, Energy Repartition and karma
The "shields" are maybe not so important. Be it in Star Wars or more recently in Battlestar Galactica, "shieldless" combat add a little more grit to combat. And that leads us to...

Energy repartition
Is that so vital to the theme ? Maybe having Pilots allotting their piloting skills to either "Evasion", "Attack", "Diversion"... might work as well. Each player could have some special "tricks" he could use (looping, Immelman, whatever...). Ship design would still be important: armor, damage, different type of weapons, ECMs, handling...

This doesn't mean they should have a lot of piloting related skills. One skill should be enough as it will be divided into multiple actions.

For the larger ships the Space Pirates attack Shield can be be replaced with escort ships. Instead of "Their shields go down 1 level" you have "You blow away one of  the Rigelian Deathspiter who escorted the ship".

Time limit: someone suggested the arrival of the "Space Police" to make an attack, that can also be the time before the target ship makes a FTL jump again. I think you should choose beetween a Time Limit OR Energy allocation, using both may require a lot of bookkeeping.

When hit, ships loose tokens, dice from dice pool, whatever you will use to measure their efficiency.

This makes Space Combat much more "gamist" , opposed to the "simulationist" view I see in the posts above (but I may be wrong). Putting that much crunch into Space Combat may turn the game to a boardgame à la Battletech/Aerotech. This can be a lot of fun, but I don't think that's your goal when I read your design document.

Karma
As someone pointed out, the goal of the Space Pirates is to loot enemy ships not destroying them. The target ship should then have a "surrender" level. If he has suffered enough damage or threats he surrenders. There should be several to do this: board the ship, take down all of it's escort, crippling it's combat system or propulsion...

The way players achieve their goals give them different reputation: "Bloodthirsty", "Cunning", "Efficient", "Cold"...
This reputation can then be used to force an enemy to surrender ("Oh my ! It's the Space Pigs we got to surrender !")

Target ships can then have too a reaction "type": against "Bloodthirsty" Pirates some will try to flee, others will surrender or fight to the death. The players do not know this before they attack them (or it can be a clue they try to find when planning an attack).

Of course the more the Pirates are known the more it should be difficult for them to find places to hide/repair/etc.

I know many things I've said seem to go against your design goals, but, well, you never know...

[Immunis]

I only discovered the forge today and love discussions like this.

I have an idea for simple space combat that uses energy manipulation.
Each system gets a different die according to it's quality i.e. poor lasers get a d6, average d6, good d8 and excellent d10.
Each player gets so many dice to play with per turn i.e. 6 dice for all systems
You can use more than one dice per system per turn and take the highest roll for that system.
e.g. player A zaps pirate B with his lasers using 2 dice of energy these are a 3 and 5. Pirate  takes 5 damage off his shield.

Player skills are simple pluses to the dice rolled for that area.
e.g. using the previous example, if player A had a +2 laser skill the result would be 7 damage not 5

To have attack and defence you could use targeting computers Vs manuver drives, you roll manuver during your turn to see how well you dodge till the next turn.
Then damage is weapons Vs shields with generators renewing shields upto the die max each turn
i.e. my shields are 3, I roll 5 on my d6 shield generator, my shields go up to my maximum 6
To show different weapons, start with two types
type A lasers (pluse gun) will damage shields and phyiscallly damage ships (damage come off the hull of the ship)
type B lasers (ion cannon) will only do half damage to shields but can incapacitate ships (damage comes off the dice pool of the ship)
A ship can carry both types of lasers but only fire one per turn

All this should encourage players to go for different ship specs, 'do I have big lasers or a good manuver to dodge', it gives them an upgrade path for their ships, 'I need those d8 shield generators' and finally teamwork, 'I'll take out his shields, then you can incapaciate his ship'

And all without to much dice work, one for hit, one for damage.

hope any or all of these ideas help.