Joint booth with Projekt Odyssee at Spiel in Essen/Germany?

[TonyLB]

Well, in the interests of helping things move fast, I'll sign in as being willing to contribute 100E to the project.

Meanwhile I will continue my devious plans to make sure youse guys is recouping the financial token that you deserve to say "Look, you did work and we're only giving you a token!  Go buy some beer!"

I'm with Eero, by the way ... it's partly about the money but mostly about how such things inform the social connections and respect.  It's a strange kind of respect, but respect nonetheless, and I want to make sure you get it.

[Eero Tuovinen]

I'm counting 11 designers, some with several products (Ron, Brennan?). Four of these are from Nexus, a couple apparently with free systems. This allows us to start estimating the cost per product. If we take 1200€ as our working figure and assume that the free systems get by with half the full cost, we're already around 100€ per product. Most everybody agreed to at least this amount, I seem to remember, so it seems we have the financing covered, unless anybody gets cold feet. We could use a couple more investors; perhaps I should myself ask my favourite designers why they aren't participating.

The remaining question marks are therefore in finding out the exact expenses. No doubt Stefan will inform us about those soon, and find out the absolute reservation deadline as well. When we know those numbers, the booth reservations can be done. When the booth is reserved, I'll reserve my plane tickets.

I'd also like to emphasize that I think it more than likely that we're going to get more interested people when and if the booth is confirmed and we know exactly how much the total cost is. If we can keep the cost per product around 100€, it's quite probable that we're going to turn a profit for most products. We'll need to decide how many products we can efficiently represent at that level.

[Ron Edwards]

Eero, here's advice from the guy who invented this sort of booth.

Put aside thoughts of profit at this time. Yes, historically, the GenCon booth has made a lot of money. But that is GenCon, and doing the same thing at other cons or venues which are only a hair off, subculturally, has not been as reliable.

The issue right now is paying for the booth, not profiting from it. Once the booth is paid for, then start thinking about little black columns and little red columns. You cannot reasonably expect or predict any sales-rate at this time, so don't try.

Organize the buy-in process. Organize the stocking and staffing of the booth. Pay for the booth. Make sure it's a reality. That should be your only concern at this time.

Best, Ron

[Zoombot]

Ok - I'm back with news for you:

One booth with 5x2m will be 709,92 Euros (Including VAT).

We can book two of that boothes lying close together (2 or 3 boothes away).

So the whole price would be 1.419,84 Euros only for the boothes. Some additional cost would be a cheap carpet for the floor of the booth. Thats everything. One booth includes 3 tickets for the fair.

There is no (!) exact deadline for us to book - Up to now there is enough free space for our boothes, but they can't guarantee that the space will be there in fpur or five weeks.

So my suggestion is: Deadline Friday 9th June - 12 pm (Hamburg)

What I need now to plan the exact financing would be a mail or a PM by everyone who is interested.  Deadline for that would be Sunday 4th June. After I know, how many guys are coming, I can plan, how much money we need in average and how much everyone 'should' pay (Depends on 'demos of the system', 'selling the system', 'only lying at the booth to look at', 'free system', etc).

So far I'm counting 11 designers who are willing to give money and some other who are would like to be a booth monkey.

Greets Stefan

[Eero Tuovinen]

Well, Frank will surely compile the information from the threads, so no need for everybody to PM you individually about it. That's why we've had these sign-in threads. Frank?

Booths: two small booths will probably work just as well, with one being the demo area and the other the sales area. It'd be nice to get them on opposite sides of an aisle, even if not exactly opposite to each other. But even on the same side and with two booths between, it's not insurmountable, and apparently much cheaper.

I'm still vague about what kind of booth furniture is or is not included in the price. Tables? Chairs? Shelving? Nothing? We have to consider those for the budget as well. Two booths makes for 6 tickets - we'll probably have more crew than that alltogether, so we should probably just include those tickets in the budget and cover the tickets for all the sales people from the common pool. Seems like the simplest solution. How much are tickets to Essen anyway?

Stefan: how are you planning to calculate the expenses and shares? I suggest doing the calculations here in public, so everybody sees what they're paying and why. Especially so as we're apparently going to have several degrees of participation from free systems to full-on commercial endeavours. Being a shared project, we have to find some degree of consensus for how the costs will be shared.

[Frank T]

I'll do the compilation thing later this evening. I'll also spend some thoughts on the VAT thing. Stefan, we should sort this out in German, that's easier. Since we are doing commercial stuff, there should be a way to get input tax deduction. However, that could require someone other than Nexus booking the booth.

I'd also like to second Eero's question about booth furniture. As I already pointed out, we would require tailor-made tables if we want to fit three demo tables into one 5x2 area. Where do we get those? And where do we get the desk for the sales booth?

Regarding fair tickets: I think getting all the booth monkeys into the fair for free, and maybe giving them a little time off to explore on their own, would be a nice way to show the respect Tony mentioned earlier on. If a little money for buying some beer comes in on top of that, fair enough.

Here's a question to the veterans: How many people do we need to effectively run the booth and the three demo tables at any given time, and how many games can we sensibly represent with three demo tables and a five meter desk? What do you think?

- Frank

[Zoombot]

Well, Frank will surely compile the information from the threads, so no need for everybody to PM you individually about it. That's why we've had these sign-in threads. Frank?

Oh - Sorry. I haven't seen that thread. Thats ok for me.

I'm still vague about what kind of booth furniture is or is not included in the price. Tables? Chairs? Shelving? Nothing?

Absolutly nothing except the wall at the back and the sides

We have to consider those for the budget as well.

Last time (2004) we used a wooden bar of the Projekt Odyssee to present the books an cds and we had a small table with five very small chairs. I'll check if the bar is big enough for us (Some of the Odyssee-Systems have an own booth, so it could last.) Chairs and tables are a problem, I will think about. Maybe some of the German authors can bring some private ones, but I'm sceptical if that would look well. I'll ask the fair, how much the cost would be to rent some tables and chairs from them and tell you.

Two booths makes for 6 tickets - we'll probably have more crew than that alltogether, so we should probably just include those tickets in the budget and cover the tickets for all the sales people from the common pool. Seems like the simplest solution.

Thats exactly the way, I would like to manage that.

How much are tickets to Essen anyway?

The ticket price is not published yet and the last time I hab do buy a ticket is some years away, so I really don't know - Maybe Nephil knows.

Stefan: how are you planning to calculate the expenses and shares? I suggest doing the calculations here in public, so everybody sees what they're paying and why. Especially so as we're apparently going to have several degrees of participation from free systems to full-on commercial endeavours. Being a shared project, we have to find some degree of consensus for how the costs will be shared.

I would not like to plan that here in public, because I'm very cautious with financial things in a public forum. I would prefer to write a mail to everyone who is willing to give money and discuss that by mail or mailing list.

[Zoombot]

Here's a question to the veterans: How many people do we need to effectively run the booth and the three demo tables at any given time, and how many games can we sensibly represent with three demo tables and a five meter desk? What do you think?

Corequisite are 6 to 8 people, I think: 3 to make a demo round and 3 to 5 behind the desk (Depends on the day and the time) - A demo round should last not more than two hours, because the average visitor won't spend more time on one event (Even is he is highly interested). If we say: Demos every day from 11 to 19 o'clock, we have 4 demos at one table a day, means 12 every day with three tables, means 48 demos at the whole fair.

Alltogether I would say, we need ten people on thursday and friday, twelve/fourteen saturday and sunday.

[Frank T]

Stefan, I think we will mostly do 15 minute demos Forge style. For the demo tables, I'm not so concerned how they look, but I am concerned how they fit into the booth.

So, authors. Whom do we have so far?

At least 4 PrO authors with free games (demo, not sell) – can we get names, by the way?
Myself, also willing to demo, not sell, but with a commercial interest of selling the game once it's published.

Ron Edwards (willing to contribute additional funding).
Ben Lehman.
Emily Care.
Brennan Taylor.
Jason Morningstar.
James Brown.
Tony Lower-Bash.

If we can cut the VAT out, we are very close to already there. If whoever books the booth in the end requires some sort of safeguard that he'll actually get his money, I would be willing to step in personally in case of need. I'll try to get the VAT part figured out whithin the next days and contact you personally about that, Stefan.

I am also pretty confident that we can gather more authors. Eero, I'd appreciate if you put up some support. I've PM'ed just about everyone, but maybe an email has a better chance of passing through.

All considered, I figure we can get moving this week.

- Frank

[TonyLB]

I don't know whether this got garbled in the works, but I figured I'd make it infinitely clear:  I am able to provide money and stock if that will help make this happen.  I am in no way able to fly out to Germany and be there in person.  No way, no how.

I don't know whether I'm alone in that, but that's my status.  Everybody cool?  Cool.

[Yvie]

Hi!

I think the 2x5 m are not so small as it sounds. I think that it is easy possible to fit in 3 tables in that space (maybe. 3 "Biertischgarnituren") they are not so comfortable but for 15 minutes presentations it should work. These tables do have not to be bought neccessarily, but I am willing to decorate them, because without decoration they are looking really ugly.

Nevertheless I would favor if the 2 booth are directly adjacent to each other. This would be better for communication and presentation.The exibition is quite crowded, especially on the weekend. I would also pay a bit more for a larger booth to ensure this.

Best Regards
Yvonne

[Frank T]

Tony, I think none of the authors named above will be there in Essen. I'm counting 10 Forge-related booth monkeys plus the PrO people thus far, and I'm working on some more.

Yvonne, I think that two adjacent spaces would be nice to have, but no must have, and since it would be additional costs of 600 Euro, I guess we can do without.

- Frank

[neph]

Hi!

Concerning the tickets: There are three tickets included with every small booth for staff, but in the last years we were able to get some more at cheaper prices (6 or 7 I guess).

As for decoration you must have a carpet (we bought a very cheap one which did survive the fair but was thrown away afterwards). The new backwalls are okay, just plain white plastic. Chairs and tables for the demos would be the main problem, "Biertischgarnituren" are pretty ugly, even if decorated and the small table and stools we used the last times were far from comfortable.

Andreas

[Eero Tuovinen]

Here's a question to the veterans: How many people do we need to effectively run the booth and the three demo tables at any given time, and how many games can we sensibly represent with three demo tables and a five meter desk? What do you think?

I've done some boothing, here's my answer: for three concurrent demos we need three people. For the booth, two people. Five people in total. If we want half of the people on rest shift at any one time, then it's ten people. Any more is redundant.

How many titles: we'll need to have somebody at the table able to discuss any of the games. We'll also need to have no more games than we can reasonably present to the public, considering our interface. Looking at the monkey thread, I'd say twenty is pushing it, thirty is absolute maximum. While more games isn't necessarily bad for the booth, at some point our ability to push the games suffers on per-title basis, as we can't use the whole selling potential of the game. In other words: if we have many games, then we shouldn't have as many copies of each. Thus the maximum.

The tables and chairs are certainly something we need to look at, and decide if they'll be included in the budget. (I imagine yes; the only party I can imagine buying equipment for themselves is Nexus, so if they're not doing it, we have to cover it with common wealth.) My preferred solution: somebody comes up and tells us that he can store semi-permanent furniture for year 2007; then we can obtain such furniture, and put it to the said storage for the year, and then reuse in 2007 (as I've said before, I for one will be going next year, too).

[Frank T]

Ok, a little more substance. Regarding the VAT (sales tax in the US), I've exchanged some emails with Ron and come to the conclusion that it's not worth the sweat, as Ron told me that most small presses don't charge sales tax anyway. So we just pay the rent in the amount Stefan stated above and sell the books without charging VAT. I thought we might save some money on this, but it looks unlikely now.

Here is some proposal as to how we proceed:

1.
All authors who wish to sponsor the booth and have their games represented there send a confirmation email to me at frank@tarcikowski.de, which I will forward to Stefan. This email should include their your name, address, the name of your press, the games you wish represented and whether you are interested in us selling the game, demoing the game, or both. We will only accept to sell and/or demo a game if we can provide qualified booth monkeys to do that.

2.
If we get together enough authors in time, Stefan rents two spaces at Spiel for Nexus at the conditions specified above. Other authors can join in later, up to an amount we think we can handle properly. There is no possibility of withdrawal, unless all other authors and Nexus concur.

3.
Responsibility of PrO/Nexus is to arrange everything with the fair. I will be responsible for coordinating the Forge participation here in Germany. Together, Stefan, Daniela and me figure out things like booth staff, furniture and equipment, to make sure we can run the booth properly.

4.
The costs shared between the booth sponsors ("Shared Costs") consist of booth rent, maintenance costs, costs for furniture and equipment (to be figured out), and fair entrance for the booth monkeys (as far as they are not included in booth rent).

4.1
The Shared Costs are distributed in equal Shares among the participants. You take a Share when (a) your game is demoed at the booth or (b) your game is sold at the booth. So a free game being demoed is one Share, a game just being sold is one Share, a game being sold and demoed is two Shares. These count per game, so if you have two games being sold and demoed, that's four Shares total. The more games and authors, the more Shares, the lower the cost per Share.

4.2
Nexus e.V. volunteers to take a fixed number of Shares or a fixed amount of the Shared Costs (Stefan?). Same goes for Adept Press (Ron?).

4.3
One Share will be 50 Euros at most. We will assure before we book the booth, based on the confirmation emails by the authors and the estimated total Shared Costs, that this amount is not exceeded. The risk of ending up with higher costs will have to be borne by Nexus, so we'd better make sure we have enough authors onboard.

4.4
Collecting the money from the authors has to be organized in time. Since international bank transfer costs are pretty high and those would have to be borne by the author, we should try to figure out the cheapest way. Stefan will convey the deadline for payment shortly. In case of need, I am generally willing to step in and advance the money, but since I'm having some other major expenses this summer, I'm not sure if I can advance it all.

5.
Authors supply the booth with however many copies of their game they think we can sell. We'll figure out the logistics later, but the shipping costs are the author's responsibility. We sell the books for you, free of VAT/sales tax, at the price you determine. You have to decide whether you want to sell to customers only, or to retailers also (at special conditions).

5.1
The copies remain your property until we sell them. If we damage or lose them, we shall replace the print costs (shared between Nexus and myself) unless it is a case of force majeure.

5.2
We will provide you with accounts of the books sold and the books remaining, and transfer the money we made on the sales to the author. Again, the cheapest way to transfer the money remains to be figured out. I will be in charge of the accounting. The author can decide to donate a certain amount per book to a Booth Monkey Pool that is used to buy drinks and stuff for the booth monkeys. I will also be in charge of the Booth Monkey Pool. Furthermore, you might think about a discount for booth monkeys to buy your games.

5.3
If any copies remain after the fair, we will see how we can make use of those copies in Europe, depending on their number. They can be used as stock for Eero's shop in Finland or for Nexus on later fairs and conventions, or stored somewhere for next year, or sold via your websites and shipped from Europe, or shipped back to you, but that remains to be agreed upon with the authors individually.

6.
Booth monkeys will travel to the fair at their own expense. We will try to provide as much free sleeping places as possible through our connections, but any costs of accommodation and meals arising are borne by the booth monkeys themselves.
_______

So far. What say you?

- Frank