Zombie game, help with concepts "normal people in ubearable situations"

[donovan75]

First off thanks for checking this out.I posted this in another forum and would like your ideas and advice.

Alright heres my problem. I want to make a rpg and have the main concepts but want to know if it's been done before or if anyone has ideas.

The setting; Modern day survival horror. this is a straight out zombie setting much like a Romero movie. I could remove the Zombie foe for conversation sake and add in natural disasters or the bomb droping or traped on an island. I'm more concerned with "normal people in ubearable situations"

The system; D6 simple. The difficulty ranges from easy to impossible with the value of the dice pool derived from four Attributes and a set of skills needed for the setting.

Now instead of hit points and complex combat, I use a sub set of sub-attributes like vitality. Vitality is a one time stat used when the zombies successfuly attack you, your dead unless you use a supporting character as a sacrifice instead (also creating a need to group up).

Supporting characters are the npc's that are found around the setting and add to your character and the group. They are a balance of bonuses and hassles.

Instead of classes I want to show the player characters as people stuck in a crisis ( the world is walking with the dead) not as superhumans or such.

The other thing is to create a system that guides the players to roleplay and feel a sense of doom and chaos like the setting would suggest. I havent found a game out their that can create that without endless mechanics that dull the mood.

At first I thought about using the Jung archetypes to sort of mix psyche and epic templates togeather as a guide for players to play the character with rewards when they pull it off right.

The other concept was to have the players characters fight for dominance as leader or to move the group (ie. to make a run to the otherside to safety thru a mob of the walking dead) but I have problems with how to do this without forcing players.

I also want to use sanity but in a way that represents true sanity. (also a substat used during crisis) Some folks would kill them selves if they found hell on earth, others would allow a relative to eat them even though there instinct says run, and some would kill every dead or infected just to stay alive without remorse.

The other thing is experiance. Instead of a character shooting his 1000 zombie and all of a sudden knowing how to perform surgery (the point system) I wanted to make it were if they success a roll then theirs a chance to grow in that skill. Also maybe if they fumble they lose a value to the die on another role failure?

So if you made it thru my rambling ideas do you know of anything like this attempted or is the rpg world stuck on number crunching or diceless games?

[Castlin]

The other thing is to create a system that guides the players to roleplay and feel a sense of doom and chaos like the setting would suggest. I haven't found a game out their that can create that without endless mechanics that dull the mood.

Well these are still mechanical suggestions I have, but they aren't endless.

For a sense of doom, add a slow death spiral to the game the players have to take actions to shrug off. Perhaps a stress stat, that automatically goes up by one each day (or hour, or week) just from living in this environment. When it reaches a certain level, or you're placed in a drastic situation suddenly, you have to test against your stress or snap (either permanently or temporarily).

For chaos, range your successes around medium numbers, making lows failures and highs good successes (but nothing critical). You want to roll one of the middle four numbers on the die to get a success. The four below that failures, the four below THAT are fumbles or botches or something (that cancel out a success). Anything above the middle is a good success or a critical or something, granting two successes. Starting at d6, you have no chance for a fumble, and a small chance for something good. Now as time goes on (or stress increases), just increase the die size. This is off the top of my head, but it seems like it would start to get pretty chaotic as d10s and d12s start hitting the table. I think it would do a good job of modeling a horror movie, which usually starts off calm, things start going wrong and get hectic, and at the end everyone either wins/escapes, or screws up and dies.

These are weird ideas and maybe more than you were looking for, but I'm bored at work today!

[Unarmed]

I've actually been thinking about designing a game based on the romero movies too. It's still kind of in it's infancy, but the ideas in this thread have got me thinking. I really like the stress mechanic. I was thinking about possibly integrating that, but have stress go up automatically, in real time. Say, everyone gets a point of stress for every half hour of real-time play. I think this will encourage the players to make quick decisions, and help simulate the horror movie environment. I like the chaos thing, but I don't know if it will work for me.

Donovan, I really, really like the idea of the supporting characters and sacrificing them. I was going to base my game more on the premise of "What is more important? My own survival or the survival of the people I care about?" And I'd be using the zombie movie setting as a way to explore this.

I have a lot of work to do, I just wanted to chime in and say that I like where this thread is going.

[Oscar Evans]

Psychology in games
The idea of using actual psychology in a game is interesting, though im sure my my girlfriend (psych student) will say Jung is outdated. She does complain that indie RPG's should use the knowledge from psych and sociology (rather than all the 'speculative' theory here on the forge).

I tell her she should design a game herself, but shes a psych student she doesnt have the time! Ill see if she has anything to say on this idea though. Personally i dont think Jung isnt pithy and direct enough to be used as the basis for characters, although at least its mathematical and symmetrical. It can probably be adapted though. Surely Jungs archetypes as character 'classes' has been done before though, its so obvious! Does anyone know if its ever been tried?

The System and its goals
System wise, it really depends what you're going for. Your concept of regular people under huge stress and this heavy emphasis on how that effects their psychological state lends itself to all sorts of interesting ideas. You might not even need a 'skill' system (for surgery, shooting zombies etc), a system determining someones psychological state would probably be more fitting. In times of crises and with enough motivation- people are capable of anything. What matters is that they keep their cool and dont freak out- not if they know how to tie a tourniquet or fire a shotgun.

Variables and their effects

Some folks would kill them selves if they found hell on earth, others would allow a relative to eat them even though there instinct says run, and some would kill every dead or infected just to stay alive without remorse.

That gives you three variables to test against right there. In the above example they might be Despair, Dissociation, and Violence. As the players perform actions in any of the categories, they gain more and more in a specific trait until they meet their messy fate. Using psych terms, these are very similiar to the fight/flight/freeze responses

Proposal One: Fight/Flight/Freeze
Each Response starts at 0. Success in any action is tested against one of the Responses (This is your core game mechanic). Perhaps the players chose which, perhaps the GM choses which, perhaps the players chose an action appropriate to the Response they wish to use (As long as they can think of one). If the player succeeds in keeping his cool (and performing the action) the Response is increased one temporary mark. You could go with 6 marks in total and test it against a d6, or 12 marks against a 2d6 (2d6 are more likely to produce an 'average' number, so it makes actions at low levels safer) or whatever numbers you like depending on the length/brutality of the game.

If the player fails, the Response gains 1 permanent mark and loses all temporary marks. In this way, every failure makes that response more likely to trigger next time. He also, obviously, goes into one of the Response modes:

• Fight he attacks something, or breaks things. This can be directed at anything, boxes, doors, zombies, etc
• Flight he runs, climbs, freaks out and gets away as fast as possible - breaking anything in the way. The player gets to chose where he goes, as long as it isnt in the direction of a direct threat.
• Freeze he sits there and rocks back and forward. Triggering a freeze is usually bad as there is no way to harness it towards your goal.

Note that technically under this system, when you fail you dont die, take HP loss, or whatever. In fact, if you are trying to run away, fight or hide, when you fail you actually do a lot better. With more complex actions though, such as picking a lock, boarding a window up, etc triggering a Response means you fail the action as there is no way to harness the Responses to perform that action. You can still do something else though, but running around a boarded up house screaming your lungs out and breaking lamps isnt very constructive. This is a game about people though, and how they act under stress isnt it? So its good to have them survive right up until they go nuts, not dying messily through bad rolls. Perhaps make it so that if they get in really bad situations, they just get closer to breaking point rather than getting hurt or anything.

Perhaps different actions would take a different number of marks to perform. Standing firm in the face of a charge of zombies might give you 3 temp Fight marks, while picking a lock when there is no immediate threat would just give you 1 temp Freeze. Using such a system, its probably a good idea to have a large pool (2d6, or a lot more).

In some circumstances the player will want to trigger a Flight or Fight on purpose (Perhaps some mechanic to allow that?). However, this is a slippery slope as it becomes harder to stop yourself from going into these responses if you keep doing it. You never really want to trigger freeze though, so its sort of your fallback in really stressful situations. Go hide in a cupboard somewhere, to prevent yourself racking up any more Fight or Flight.

This is tied into the players overall psychology. Each failed Response test brings them closer to snapping.

When the player hits 6 (or 12, or whatever) permanent notches in:

• Fight, he goes nuts and starts attacking his friends. Presumably they put him down. Or maybe he wades into a horde of zombies armed with a chainsaw and kills 20 of them, sacrificing himself before being ripped apart.


• Flight, he runs away and doesnt stop running, and presumably dies in some messy manner.


• Freeze, he sit in a corner rocking back and forth and presumably gets eaten by zombies.

If you dont want to use this as a core mechanic, im sure you can see how it would slot over a normal system.

Alternatives to this would be using motivations (Good things, your Happy Place) or domains of psychological stress or coping methods rather than responses

Recommendations
Something worth looking at is the Madness system used in Unknown Armies might be good. Click the PDF preview (up the top of the right panel) and scroll down to the section on madness. I dont tink their domains of psychological stress are best for zombie survival, and you would need some other punishment than losing access to your motivations. This might be one of the systems you have already checked out and decided was too 'crunchy' though.

[donovan75]

Wow,
Talk about some ideas. You guys both pulled thu here. I really want to thank you for taking the time and putting your thoughts down for me.

I did check out the Unknown Armies and have to say the sanity meter with a toughness and failed trait atached to the character to show progress for loss of humanity very cool.
Adding that with the fight/flight/freeze concept might end up very cool, like a saving throw in a way. Using the three responces as a temp format and the permanent point resulting in a failed+toughness trait would be wicked. this would create veteran survivalist who become more twisted as the game goes on.

One thing about the Archetypes from Jung. I wanted to do something thats away from classes, which work for epic games. I'm looking for something that could catigorize broad persona's.
Example: the Archetype Innocent; A mentaly slow adult (the Atistic guy from The Cube), a naive hopeful or an actual kid. I would set up a guideline of how to rp the character like, you never lead the group or something. If the player does this then I could reward them or perhaps the archetype gives certain abilities to the group for roleplaying right, like an inocent archetype relaxes the group by riding a bike around the mall court while the others are just realizing that their families are all dead, without a constent reminder of the hope of the naive mind the characters start to traumatize faster.

I just need a real set of Human psyche templates that work.

I wanted to also maybe give the characters an occupation for each 5 years of life, this would allow them certain skills...like a Doctor occupation picked would allow the character medical skills. Now for all characters they get all the standard skills based on their attributes. Like a character with a BODY of 2D6 would get all physical skills (or actions) at 2D6 but couldnt do medical skills (execpt fist aid) because he didnt pick the occupation. This could allow players to pick drifter types (many occupations) to proffessionals (Accountants, Police, Housewifes). Also the skills dont go up per say, maybe attributes could increase? Is this more of the idea about skillless Oscar?

Also I wanted to get away from the limited equipment list and go with using everyday items. Like with common sense if you want to pull a nail from a board you get a + for using a hammer but get a - for using a knife. I wanted also the set skills this way so i can also involve quality. Like a + for a high end assault rifle used with the FIREARMS skill, were as an ill maintained cheap 9mm would give you a minus to use but allows you to use the skill (so you dont have to physically engage the zombie hoard)

Also I like the ticking clock idea about increasing the difficulty of the game to escalate the sense of doom for the players. This could reset when they get to a defensable shelter.It could effect the vitality of the character, making them easyer to get eaten by the dead since your just adrenalined out.

Which brings me to resources...

The game should also be about loss and gain of safety, food, comfort, old times, fellowship, health. If we give the players stuff then we can endanger it. Same with Support Characters...who wouldnt want to rescue a 10 year old youve found in a cube truck a week ago in the Mall? An could you sacrifice her up when your baracade breaks down in the Mall? If you were a 10th level Assassian then yeah sure, but not Bob Gains the Cop from Dallas. TX.

Tell me your guys thoughts?

thanks again

[daHob]

You might want to take a look at 'The Farm'. It's an RPG that puts the players in a farm run by cannibals. It has interesting mechanics for modeling 'good of the group' vs. 'good of the individual'.

Here is a review: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10995.phtml

Steve

[Gary "Grail" Condra]

Hey there,

I'm working on a zombie role play system as well (Raid Earth) I've mentioned it before but we may be able to help each other with development. Let me know if that sounds good to you.

Cheers,
Gary

[Marc Majcher]

Hey there,

I'm working on a zombie role play system as well (Raid Earth) I've mentioned it before but we may be able to help each other with development. Let me know if that sounds good to you.

Cheers,
Gary

I, too, have yet another zombie game ("The Dead Walk!") that's been brewing for a while, awaiting a playtest sesson. It sounds remarkably similar to what you're looking to do - if you want to take a gander, let me know, and I'll send you a rough draft, and some design notes. 

[sean2099]

Although I think the issue I am bringing forth is minor, I think there should be an opportunity to sacrifice items instead of people.  I only mentioned this because I know players that get attached to "Old Betsy" (shotgun.) 

I think a part of establishing safety is getting essential items and luxury items.  There are some people that seem more attached to their stuff than people.  E.G.  "Old Betsy" has gotten a player out of a few nasty situitions.  Then, a zombie grabs it and yanks it out of their hand.  In a sense, a mascot of the player has been stripped away from them.

Just a thought,

Sean

[donovan75]

Sean, I totaly agree with you that perhaps a system of taking things that matter to the player (character). That would make the players feel a sense of loss.

Marc and Gary, I would love to read through both your notes or drafts.

If we are all thinking about all the same ideas then we could join forces.

One thing I'm good at it art for sure and I have a degree in Graphic Tech. So I know about printing, design (have the programs) and working towards publishing. I can layout and do the art so thats a plus.

Donovan

[Gary "Grail" Condra]

Sean, I totaly agree with you that perhaps a system of taking things that matter to the player (character). That would make the players feel a sense of loss.

Marc and Gary, I would love to read through both your notes or drafts.

If we are all thinking about all the same ideas then we could join forces.

One thing I'm good at it art for sure and I have a degree in Graphic Tech. So I know about printing, design (have the programs) and working towards publishing. I can layout and do the art so thats a plus.

Donovan

Sounds very interesting, I work best on combat systems and character creation myself. The notes for the character creation (thus far) are in the endeavour (sp?) area ([Raid earth] Character Creation and Skills). Although my system is set in the near future much of it could be transferred to yours. Hmm tell you what Donovan, seeing as I'm young and not used to creating role play systems how about I join with you on this one? I mean I can always finish mine later after I've gained experience with making systems. If that sounds good I'll you everything I'm good at that could be used. I write fiction (various genres), I draw (although I can't draw hands for anything), I make combat systems, character creation systems (I just struggle with skills that can be brought) and I have unlimited broadband that I can access most days. Oh and if your not interested in working with me then no worries we'll just help each other by sharing notes.

[donovan75]

Great Gary!
I also got Marc's pdf on his game and yours, so I'll be reading them. I have some of the write up on mine which I'll place here in the next post. I have detailed out this game pretty well and can let you guys see what I'm looking for in a game.

I know from previous experiance that having more people on the idea/refining team makes the game really tighten up. I hope you both find the task as exciting as I do.

[Oscar Evans]

Wow,
Talk about some ideas. You guys both pulled thu here. I really want to thank you for taking the time and putting your thoughts down for me.

No problem. I tend to just take the concept and run with it (then just keep on running). Though im afraid to say, it seems im running in the wrong direction.

I just need a real set of Human psyche templates that work.

Yeah thats the problem. You could use Zombie Movie Stereotypes, although that may be a bit campy.

Your agenda
You seem to have a pretty definite agenda, with a strong sense of what sort of system you want to use. Skills, stats, items types, modifiers, sub-attributes lots of dice and rules on what everything does and how etc.

But how does this advance your goal of "normal people in ubearable situations"? The most important skill any 'normal' person can have when dealing with an unbearable situation is an ability to stay calm, think rationally, and deal with the stress. How does this "guide the players to roleplay and feel a sense of doom and chaos like the setting would suggest"? Is this a George Romero Zombie Movie, or a Sam Raimi Zombie Movie? Thats okay, it can be either: But which do you want? Is this a zombie fragfest, with the players getting more and more powerful as they mow their way through hordes of zombies with clever catchphrases? Or is this about the slow inexorable march towards insanity and death, about how humans react under pressure when removed from the safety of society, with zombies as a backdrop or metaphor?

Which do you want, and how does your system encourage that?

If you want a game which is really about what the psychology of the individuals, then you should have systems which deal with their psychology- not their stats, skills, guns, or boards with nails in them. Thats superfluous to the characters state of mind. Why does it matter that his gun does 2d6 dammage and the zombie has 8 vitality? What matters is if he is capable of shooting his best friends re-animated corpse in the face, and the sort of impact that has on his mental state. Why does it matter that the players first aid skill can heal 5 points of injury per scene? What matters is if he is capable of dealing with the violence all around him and the constant reminder of his mortality without losing his humanity, compassion, or will to live.

Its your system, and your agenda, naturally. Just try and keep your objectives in mind and ensure they are not only compatible with but actively encouraged by the system.

[Gary "Grail" Condra]

Great Gary!
I also got Marc's pdf on his game and yours, so I'll be reading them. I have some of the write up on mine which I'll place here in the next post. I have detailed out this game pretty well and can let you guys see what I'm looking for in a game.

I know from previous experiance that having more people on the idea/refining team makes the game really tighten up. I hope you both find the task as exciting as I do.

I've got what you sent me now I just have to read it, although I love the title you chose Anyway like I said I'm willing to work with you (after all I am only 16 not that anyone really picked up on that) and  I'm very willing to help out with what I'm good at.

Cheers,
Gary

[donovan75]

Oscar, love the questions, hope this helps?

But how does this advance your goal of "normal people in unbearable situations"?

I have designed a set of  stats called RESOLVE (the reaction). There based on ATTRIBUTES (the action)
Vitality (your will to live)
Speed(your reaction timing)
Aware (sense of your surroundings and mental reaction)
Sanity (grip on humanity and coping ability). After a character rolls their skill and successeds then the resolve is rolled. its the reaction of the self. they have to roll there resolve rank (which is based on attributes) if they roll that number or higher they can perform the action without a negative reaction. Otherwise they reactive negatively to the self.

EXAMPLE: James wants to run past a group of zombies to get to a door on the other side.

He performs a Running action using his REFLEX attribute (the skill resides in the reflex skill group) which is a dice pool of 2D6. His RUNNING skill rank is a 4, so James goes to roll but the GM takes away a die because hes carring a sledgehammer.
Now he has 1D6 to roll a 4,5,6. he rolls a 6 and goes to roll his resolve.
His Resolve for using a REFLEX roll is SPEED which is a 4 (start with 6 and minus full die from rank, 6-2=4) now James has to roll a 4,5,6 to not reactive negatively.
James rolls 2D6 based on REFLEX and rolls a 1 and 5, the one cancels the 5 and on a separate fumble roll he gets a 2 so he doesn't gain a FAULT but it still fails.
He now has a permanent 3 resolve for SPEED and the player narrates his failure using his archetype guideline. James runs through the room dodging several zombies until one touches him and he losses grip on his hammer at the door, smashing it to shards. this leaves the doorway open for the zombies.

I hope the above explains a little about how the idea of choice and consequences are enforced? I also have started on a questionare each player fills out before character creation. This short form is used to calculate the way players think about gaming and transfers to the personality of the character. The guidelines made from the form is used to assist the player and reward him when he uses the guide. Its also tied into the mechanics as well.

As to seriousness of the game I think the questionaire will figure this since levity is an attribute as is seriousness. As the characters resolve melts the players themselves will react to it. You can have a solid mind but you will crack if you running around killing stuff. I really think what makes people do what they do is based on reaction. Otherwise we would do as we will and if the end comes some would.

And gary thanks, hope to get some solid remarks from yeah. And age makes no matter, infact your ideas are probley more creative than you think. I worked with a guy who was 15 on a player ran ultima online emulator and we ended up with a 50 person group with a 60 page cultural guidebook and language we used to do some amazing role-playing.