[DitV] Quickie: Disconnect between arenas and fallout die sizes

[JMendes]

Hey, :)

This is just a quickie. I think I'm reading this right, but I wanted to make sure.

Arenas:
Non-physical: Acuity+Heart
Physical: Body+Heart
Fighting: Body+Will
Gunfighting: Acuity+Will

Fallout Dice:
Non-physical: d4s
Physical: d6s
Weapon: d8s
Gunshot: d10s

Even though actual fallout dice incurred are not dependedant on the arena, but rather the actual action, there's still a correspondence between arenas and fallout dice. If we're talking, we're in non-physical with d4's. If we're running, we're in physical with d6's. If we're in a knife fight, we're fighting with d8's. And if we're shooting, we're gunfighting with d10's.

Here's my question, though: there seems to be a mismatch with regards to fist fighting. If I want to punch someone's clock out, I'm in fighting, but the dice are still d6's. Is this correct?

Like I said, I just wanted to make sure I was reading it right.

Cheers,
J.

[Mikael]

What´s this, a trick question? From the rules:

- Just talking: Acuity+Heart.
- Physical, not fighting: Body+Heart.
-Fighting hand to hand: Body+Will.
-Gun fighting: Acuity+Will.

So, d8 for fighting with fists. No one said anything special about using weapons (except dice for things, obviously).

[Darren Hill]

In my games, when people use their fists, I ask if they are intending to hurt their foes or is it more posturing, grappling, pushing & shoving. With their answer, they then decide whether they want it to be fighting or physical.

[Nicolas Crost]

Here's my question, though: there seems to be a mismatch with regards to fist fighting. If I want to punch someone's clock out, I'm in fighting, but the dice are still d6's. Is this correct?

By the rules this is correct. I don't think this is the best part of the rules though, since it leads to the effect that you can get all possible dice (Acuity, Body, Will, Heart) and still only dish out d6 fallout. At least in my games this produced some weird effects, so I would probably advise houseruling it (if you are unhappy with the results, that is).

But perhaps I am wrong and fistfighting is d8 after all...

[Mikael]

Sorry J, my bad. I see now what you were talking about.

The rules really are a bit confusing in this area. Anyway, we take them to mean that if your intent is to hurt somebody it´s d8, with guns as a special case with d10. And nothing special about fists, except you do not get dice for things.

Any other approach would muddy things for me, with a lot more left open for interpretation.

[Adam Cerling]

I think that disconnect is deliberate and useful.

Just consider the rules for Ceremony, after all -- your Dogs are Just Talking when they unite Three In Authority, but they are still whalloping those sorcerors with d8s of fallout nonetheless.

[JMendes]

Hi, :)

Ok, so right off the bat, I'm not crazy, and that's always a good sign. :)

So, is there an official ruling on this?

Cheers,
J.

[lumpley]

An official ruling about whether fists inflict d6 or d8 fallout? Are you kidding?

The official ruling is: it's up to your group to work out what counts as a legit raise, what counts as a legit see, how the supernatural works, and what fallout specific raises inflict. Nobody gets to just decide and you shouldn't discuss it beforehand, just feel it out case by case and after a session or three you'll have an implicit understanding.

When I GM one-shots I play like Darren says. Sometimes I say "so do you figure this for d6 or d8 fallout?" and sometimes I say "I know you're just trying to restrain him not hurt him, but I'm going to give him d8 fallout anyway, cool with you?"

-Vincent

[JMendes]

Ahey, :)

Gotcha. I be informed. Thankee, pardner! :)

Hmm... come to think of it, that informs me on some other stuff that's been going on at the table, namely usage of coats and stuff... k, cool. :)

Cheers,
J.

[lumpley]

Hmm... come to think of it, that informs me on some other stuff that's been going on at the table, namely usage of coats and stuff... k, cool. :)

Oh now that's terrific. Do you feel like saying more about that? Because I'd love to hear.

-Vincent

[JMendes]

Hey, :)

Hmm... sure, why not. It's kinda swishing around in the back of my brain, but I'll try to verbalize...

It's like this: the very first time someone had a just-talking conflict about trying to convince someone to do something, they described themselves waving their arms around, so that their coat would open and flutter about, and that's how they justified bringing in their coat dice. Now, at the time, I remember that felt weird to me, and I was gonna go all "pickiest player" and say something, but I didn't, because, really, how else are you gonna bring your coat in?

And then, it happened again. And again. And again.

It's like, the coat dice, they come in when they come in, and that's that. Other traits and belongings, people still exercise thought about them, but the coats... "and as I say this, I wave my arms and my coat flutters in the wind", and it's in.

The official ruling is: it's up to your group to work out what counts as a legit raise [...] Nobody gets to just decide and you shouldn't discuss it beforehand, just feel it out case by case and after a session or three you'll have an implicit understanding.

And that's that. Somewhere in the back of my head, I had this nagging feeling that we should come down on the coat thing some time soon, but I didn't really want to do it. Now I know why. :)

Here's hoping I made sense.

Cheers,
J.

[Mikael]

Let´s start another discussion about whether waving your arms about and a flapping coat is still just talking or actually an escalation to physical!

Just kidding.

[Darren Hill]

You may be kidding, but I had exactly the same thought :)

[oreso]

I allow the coat as a symbol of authority, as a kinda poetic talisman, or for something creative (one of my players likes doing trick shots with it like Revolver Ocelot from Metal Gear Solid). So, if someone wouldnt be impressed by your coat (they're not faithful, they just dont like dogs, etc) then it wouldnt be allowed. By poetic talisman, I mean utilising some features of the coat (damage, who it was made by or a design on it or something) that echos the current conflict (eg, you got a knife gash in the back of your coat, your char feels the wind pull at the hole and his words are filled with fire when dealing with a traitor). 

If its just the not-very-creative narration that's the trouble, incorporate some not-so-subtle mockery of it into your own narration.
"...and my coat flutters in the wind."
"And gets caught on a fence, which makes you an easier target for falling bird crap. The dude laughs in your face."

Except not really (except as a joke), but you could just say: "That's kinda weak. Why not do something like X?". .   

Removing it temporarily might be good too, (the only way you can meet NPC X is at a function with a dress code, it gets infested with bugs or a bad smell and needs to be cleaned by a professional, etc). Don't ever force your players not to use their coat, but you can make it silly and difficult for them.

On second thoughts, i guess you could undermine their crap narration without twisting it against them unfairly. Have the NPC's mimic it or refer to their silly flamboyancy directly. Gotta be careful though, you dont want players to be fearful about being creative.
"...and my coat flutters in the wind."
"The dude flaps his coat too and gaffaws and says "an' it looks like you're blowin' hot air out your ass too!"."