[Outside] Getting beat up with blind spots.

[Clyde L. Rhoer]

So I conducted my first playtest of Outside on Saturday, and it was great because it went so horribly. That is great because I had been waiting for a semi-annual get together with some good friends who know me well enough to not try to spare my feelings. They really poked some holes in my game design.

A really quick refresher: Outside is a game about children growing up. For a time their Imagination has real power, but all power has a price and there are different elements of the Universe out to get them.

I had planned to have them make characters and then run a game. I thought my system was fairly solid and was wanting to test if the Flags drove play like I want them to. We never made it that far as we choked on Tricks. Tricks in Outside are player made kewl powers. The problem was I hadn't really tackled how tricks would work with the conflict system and got totally blindsided when they stuck this in my face. I think I've got a good handle on this problem as I'm figuring out how the two should interact and where the limits are.

I eventually had to just stop the discussion as we weren't going anywhere and shut off tricks, and asked them to continue making characters as I wanted to test the conflict resolution system, and the Flags. We got mostly done with the Flags, and then hunger, and after dinner reminiscing put the playtest at an end.

The problem I want to discuss is the Flags. I'm making this game for my gamemaster style. I like to come to the table with very little planned and grab threads from the player, and throw a spin on them, or create challenge to get in the way of them completing goals. So Flags will be important. I used to do things in the past like require 2 pages of background, or even further have a pre-session where I grilled the player about their character and made notes. I did this because I didn't realize that Flags were what I was looking for. Then I came across Burning Wheels Instincts and Beliefs. This was the shorthand for what I have always been unconsciously trying to do, so I stole them-- and like any good thief changed their names. I called them Behaviors(instincts) and Goals(beliefs). As time went on I felt this did not work well for what I was going for and split Goals into Hopes and Fears.

My problem is I really don't have much to point the players to what I want them to do. I don't have the words. I kind of instinctually know what I'm looking for, but am blank on describing that in a cogent way. So looking at their characters afterwards I didn't feel like there would have been enough to grab on to and spin a game out. I may be expecting too much and may have to consider tightening the game down with a well developed situation to drive initial play.

To attempt to be more specific-- Behaviors seemed to be working fine, but many of the Hopes were too long term to grab, by long term I mean hopes for Adulthood. Which doesn't help to drive play now. The Fears didn't strike me as "tasty" enough.

Is this making sense?

[Jasper]

Seems like your flag names are vague and also possibly misleading. (You don't necessarily even need two distinct categories, do you?) "Hopes" suggests something long-term and grown-up just by its name. "Wants" seems more immediate, selfish and childish to me -- and those things probably make better flags.

Still, it's hard to know what kind of flags would work really well for you. You said Behaviors worked a little better. Can you give some examples of ones you liked? Or maybe an example from some other game where you wove flags together into a situation?

[jerry]

Seems like your flag names are vague and also possibly misleading. (You don't necessarily even need two distinct categories, do you?) "Hopes" suggests something long-term and grown-up just by its name. "Wants" seems more immediate, selfish and childish to me -- and those things probably make better flags.

Just a wild thought: it sounds to me like "wants" should become "hopes" as the characters "lose" (in the sense that growing up and losing imaginative power are "losing" which of course they might not be).

Jerry

[Valamir]

Why not make them even more obvious.  These are children right.

So you have two lists:  "Today I wanna" and "Today I don't wanna"

Can't get a much bigger flag than that.

I don't know how your mechanics or tricks work, but it seems to me that it would be a fairly trivial exercise to tie crossing things off those lists into you mechanics.

[Clyde L. Rhoer]

Hi guys,

I understand your points about perhaps reconsidering names, and numbers of flags. Jasper I will give the examples you asked for this Saturday. I'm swamped till then, and it will likely be long. I think what I'm looking for is a discussion of how to make flags so they drive the game? What parameters do you need? What is the best way to state them so people reading my text understand what I want, other than trying to make better names?

[Clyde L. Rhoer]

Jasper:

Sorry for the delay. I wish I could give you some specific examples but I left the character sheets at my friends house (I may remember a few) and it's a bit far of a trip to make just for that purpose. I also haven't really got to use flags as a gamemaster as in my new location I haven't been afforded much of an opportunity. All excuses aside I will try to lay something more substantial out.

The reasons Behaviors work is because they were simply statements that followed a pattern. Pretty much the same pattern as Burning Wheel... I always do X, If X then Y else Z, While X then Q. Basically short compound statements similar to simple computer programming flow of control. So one example was, "I always lie." These should give a few strong character traits that I can use to create challenge for the characters.

Now the reason I have made Hopes and Fears, is both those ideas are important to what I'm going for. Even if I change the name I think I would like to keep both. Much of the game is about not getting out of balance and becoming a monster, either by losing all your creativity, or becoming too abusive. I think if characters don't have something to push them along then the game will be boring as the easiest way to not get out of balance is to do nothing. So I need some levers to create situations they will want to deal with. The emphasis is on want, so the idea is for them to create a few things that I can create challenges or bangs for.

Now you wanted some examples, and I haven't really given you any since I haven't had a good chance to really use flags since discovering them. I'll give you a few examples of times I've created something from a player/character making what I've always called, "an offer", or "an offer you can't refuse." These seem to me to point in the same direction as flags.

A 2nd edition D+D game in the early to mid 90's. I had set up a town, and had worked with the characters to develop their reasons for being there, and their relationships. I had developed NPC's and had their relationships developed. I had no plot, the NPC's had relationships but basically were at a status quo, things wouldn't change unless outside influences caused the change. The characters decided that a Gnome Illusionist/Thief NPC would be a good source of information that would lead them further to completing a goal they were trying to pursue. So... at the moment he became a good source of information, but being a tricky/greedy sort he wanted a price, and told them in a roundabout way he could supply them the information for a price. One player remarked, "What do you want-- an Ice Flower?" The NPC promptly replied, "Yes, that would be quite nice actually." Neither I or the player had the slightest idea what an Ice Flower was, but I was sure they could find it, or create it.

To me something like, "I'm searching for the Ice Flower but have no idea what it is," would be a great flag for D+D.

A Werewolf: The Apocalypse LARP I ran. A player had been getting the pack into trouble. He had used his powers (Sense Wyrm) to figure out where all the spiritual baddies were, even the ones that were too big to handle. When he told his pack alpha (his leader) who was known to have a bad overconfidence problem they got into some really bad scrapes. He was feeling guilty, and wanted to make up for it, but didn't make me aware of this fact. He told me he wanted to find the packs totem. (The Pack Totem is an idealized representation of the pack, spiritual symbol and perhaps roundabout teacher.) This didn't seem like a difficult thing so after a little bit of setting the scene he found what he was looking for. He proceeded to tell the totem which was Stag (not a stag but the stag) all of his problems, and all his failures, and how he felt bad and wanted to redeem himself and asked, "What should I do?" We had already established that Stag being a proud animal would only speak to the Pack Alpha. So I was in a bit of a dilemma as how to respond, so I had Stag pick up a pine cone, and offer it to the player. I had no idea what the Pine Cone was, or did, and neither did the player, but eventually he figured it out for me. Just like I knew he would.

I think, "I've failed my pack and seek redemption." might be a good flag for a Werewolf LARP.

Same Werewolf LARP. The aforementioned Pack Alpha, had written up in his back story how his true love was another Werewolf, but bad stuff had happened to his previous pack. He hadn't seen her die but circumstances were such that he was sure she was dead. This was probably for the best as Werewolf law prohibits two Werewolves from breeding as their offspring is always deformed in one way or another. This means that open love can get the character punished or outcast, at least in our games, I can't remember if those are official-like setting rules.(The love part not the deformed part.) Anyway, she was of a peaceful tribe called The Children of Gaia. He had a character flaw he had taken called Hatred, specifically a hatred of vampires. He went above and beyond the normal Werewolf to find and destroy vampires. So in the back ground for quite sometime, I had her working with Vampires as she hoped she could heal them and might have even had a bit of success. I intended to challenge his hatred to see whether he would extend it to his lost love, down grade his hatred, or choose an option I couldn't forsee.

I think, "I've lost my one true love, and it's probably best because that love is forbidden by my society.", and "I uphold the standards of my society vigorously," and finally " I hate Vampires so much that I try to kill them on sight no matter the danger to me." would be three good flags for a Werewolf LARP.

Is this helpful in understanding what I'm wanting to create? Something that has the players create meaningful pointers to plot and/or useful items for bangs. My problem is I don't understand how to give directions to point towards creating these kind of flags. Is this making more sense, or does it even address the info you were looking for Jasper?

Ralph:

I totally missed it in my first reading. Could you expand on what you mean by, "crossing those things off into your mechanics?" I'm somewhat unsure what you mean, but am guessing that the idea would be if they bring a flag to completion they gain a benefit? Is that correct?

[Ron Edwards]

Hey Clyde,

I have a notion. It seems to me that you have been sidetracked. The core of a game is its reward system, and the gears & axles of the reward system is embodied by the conflict resolution.

And you're going 'round and 'round working on all these secondary, extra parts. I think the Beliefs/Instincts by whatever name are further distracting you; you're trying to adapt BW to your system when you haven't yet seen or come to grips with your system.

I suggest saying fuck-it to the Tricks and (for now) to the Behaviors, Hopes, and Fears. You want to see whether Flags work, right? Well, play some Flags and play some conflicts, see whether they work.

Best, Ron

[Valamir]

Ralph:

I totally missed it in my first reading. Could you expand on what you mean by, "crossing those things off into your mechanics?" I'm somewhat unsure what you mean, but am guessing that the idea would be if they bring a flag to completion they gain a benefit? Is that correct?

Well, here's what I've taken away from the thread so far:

1) you have a game about children growing up and the sort of people they become
2) you want to minimize GM prep by having players put on their character sheet various items that you can riff off of as GM to generate action around.
3) So far what the players are coming up with either isn't fitting the notion of playing children or isn't giving you enough to grab onto for prep purposes and you aren't sure how to explain to them what they need to do to make #1 and #2 work.

So assuming I've got that mostly right my suggestion boils down to the following:

1) Give the flags flavor suitable to the idea that you're playing children.  "Hopes and Fears" seems a little high falutin' to me.  That has more of an older person reminiscing about childhood lost kind of flavor.  Or maybe a teenage girl pouring out her angst in her diary.  I don't know how young you want the childrent to be, but choose categories that recall what's important to children at that age.  A game about 6-8 year olds will have a very different feel than a game about 13-15 year olds.  If you put the flavor into not just what you CALL the flags, but how they're chosen, what's a suitable flag, how to write them, how they get used in the game -- then you'll be half way there to making sure the flavor comes through properly in actual play.

2) Make the flags a call to action.  Its hard to build a scenario on vague airy fairy notions.  But if the flags become what the character actually wants to DO (or not to do) then they pretty much drive themselves.

That was the logic behind my "I wanna" "I don't wanna" suggestion (suitable for a particular age of kid but maybe not all).  "I wanna go to the water park with my dad for my birthday" Is not only full of flavor but also an immediate call to action.  Its a specific direction for you to run with.  "I don't wanna get beat up again at recess" is also.  These aren't vague "maybe someday" dreams but things that are immediate and personal.

As for tieing them into the mechanics, that will be a matter of your personal preference.  I find flags to be more effective when they actually have game mechanics backing them up.  Acting on / in accordance with / or against ones BITs in Burning Wheel plays directly into the Artha system.  In Hero Quest or Universalis many of the flags are defined as Traits which get rolled for resolution same as any other Trait.  Its not strictly necessary.  Sorcerer attribute descriptors are great flags that have zero mechanical tie.  So its all what works best for your design.

Not knowing how your mechanics work, I can't offer specific suggestions.  But in general it shouldn't be difficult to figure out a way to encourage your players to help incorporate their own flags into play by giving them a mechanical incentive for doing so.

[Clyde L. Rhoer]

Alright guys,

advice noted. I'm going to try Ralph's names and takes Ron's advice and strip the game down a bit to see how it works. More than likely I'll have more problems this weekend as I have another playtest schelduled. *grins* Thanks alot for the help. We can close this thread now.