Parallel setting on two different worlds?

[Alex-01]

Dear role-players,

I don`t know if this is he right place, but I have a problem with a background story.
There are two worlds: A fantasy world and a SciFi/Future world. Every player has a character on each world. The characters can't change the world in any way and they can't receive information about technical details or other secrets (e.g. the secret of gun powder for the fantasy world).
How can I create a background story in which the two groups can act together against one enemy or one threat?  The scenario should only be successful solved, when both groups were victorious.
Any ideas how PC´s from a fantasy and a SciFi-world can have one aim?

Additional questions:
To create some scenario it might be interesting, to interact more. I have a rough (general) impression what I want no concrete scenario idea:
The group in the fantasy world has to search for information the group in the SciFi word needs (but what kind of information)?
The group in the SciFi world needs a metal (e.g. Mithril) from the fantasy world to solve a problem on their world (for which problem do they need magical metal?).

In other words: What kind of exchange (information, metal ...) would make sense between Legolas and Captain Picard?

Please help me with concrete scenario ideas or general background ideas.

[Selene Tan]

My first thought was that the worlds have key elements in parallel, so that if one group's progress is blocked, they can get past by eliminating the corresponding element in the other world. But then you said that the characters can't change the world in any way, and that confused me, because your example about importing mithril would definitely be a change. Did you mean no major changes, e.g. to landmarks or key political figures? Or did you mean that you don't want the technology levels to change? Or something else?

A hokey possibility is that there are a bunch of items from each world that got stranded in the other world and are causing disturbances. The groups need to gather the items and send them back to their original worlds.

But I realize that I don't know some of your goals, which might be helpful. What scope do you want the characters' actions to have? Are they saving their respective worlds, running around in a single country, or sticking to a particular town? How difficult is it to transfer stuff between worlds, and how well-known is the existence of the other world?

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

There are some elements in your idea I like very much. The image I'm getting is effectively "split-screen play," in which we as players see both stories, but the characters never or rarely do, and so there's a bigger story that we know and they do not. A game system which emphasized the strengths and possibilities of this concept would be a wonderful thing.

However, I am decidedly turned off by other possibilities, and at this point I'm not sure whether you are emphasizing the stuff I am interested in, or the stuff I'm not. The stuff I'm turned off by would be things like communication between the two worlds and a general sense of team-up across the stories among the characters.

Now, my preferences should not be your priority. What I'm asking is, which of the two notions I described above is more of your vision for this game? That will help me and others figure out what to help you emphasize in your design.

Best, Ron

[wheloc]

Piers Anthony's "Apprentice Adept" books are probably the classic in the genre, and might be useful (at least as a basis of compairison).

One of things you might do is clarify what the difference between magic and technology is.  Can you apply scientific theory to magic (or magical theory to science?), or do they work of differnt principles?  This might make it easier to figure out what the strengths and weaknesses of each are, which will make it easier to figure out what sort of things trade might benefit societies that use one and is in contact with a society that uses the other.  The distinction blurs at the "signifigently advanced..." level, so if you want the campain to focus on the differenc between the two you might want to scale down your technology from Star Trek (an illusion spell is less impressive once you've spent time in a holideck).

For example, say technology is dependible but limited, while you can do anything with magic but it's inheriently unreliable.  Tech is good for the everyday things that you always want to work, while magic is good for those high-end things that are conventially impossible.  So the fantasy world will be impressed by toasters and clean showers, while the tech world will be impressed by wishes and resecurections.

Of course, it might be fun to play in a campaign where both can do pretty much anything, and the only difference is how they're used...

[Alex-01]

First of all, thank you Selene Tan, Ron and wheloc for your ideas,

It helped me lot.

But then you said that the characters can't change the world in any way, and that confused me, because your example about importing mithril would definitely be a change.

My fault – I wasn't clear. I think it's a problem, when characters can switch between worlds of a different tech-level. A fantasy world needs gods, superstition, magic and dangerous monsters. A character with the experience of a present tech-level isn't a fantasy character any more. I think it's complicated and dangerous, too, to bring tech form a higher level world to a fantasy-world (I remember TORG – this technology transfer needs a lot of rules). Therefore it's not possible to change the world or transfer technology.
The possibility to transfer stuff like mithril is just an idea which can lead to a scenario. If it's too complicated or not logical, we can forget it.

How difficult is it to transfer stuff between worlds, and how well-known is the existence of the other world?

The characters should be "home defenders". Maybe they can communicate in a (mental?) way with their friends/counterparts on the other world, but they can not share technology knowledge.

The main idea:
There is an evil race, who wants to destroy, conquer or damage the worlds. They don't live in this world (they come from outside), but they have to act on the technology level of the world they live (they can't land with the dark star on the fantasy-world). If they want to destroy the fantasy-world, they have to do it like fantasy-characters and they don't have knowledge over and above this tech-level.
But they have a "catalogue" of actions to harm the world (create monster, kidnap people ...).
My problem is: what kind of action can influence the other world? Finally I want a scenario with a "ping-pong-effect".
Example:
The evil guy is creating a monster on the fantasy-world who terrorizes the population. This would be a standard-scenario for the fantasy-world, but this creation has a side effect on the SciFi world. "Normal" bees (in the SciFi world) are becoming killer bees and terrorize a city. The killer bees can't be erased until the monster at the fantasy world isn't defeated.
The characters at the SciFi-world can't therefore solve their bee-problem until they have the help of the fantasy-group.
 Not the best example, but I think it shows my problem.

How difficult is it to transfer stuff between worlds, and how well-known is the existence of the other world?

It is just an idea to transfer stuff between the worlds. Maybe only the evil guys can transfer stuff between worlds. This stuff can only be "low level stuff", e.g. metal or plants.
Idea: The evil guy is sending a (magical?) poisonous berry to the SciFi world. His evil friend/counterpart in the SciFi world is using this berry to create a new poison. There is no cure against this poison, because no one knows this berry.

There are some elements in your idea I like very much. The image I'm getting is effectively "split-screen play," in which we as players see both stories, but the characters never or rarely do, and so there's a bigger story that we know and they do not.

This is exactly what I want. The player is aware the big story but the characters don't have the full information and are "limited" to their world and their tech-level. But with fighting a local problems they are fighters in the "big story" as well.

The stuff I'm turned off by would be things like communication between the two worlds and a general sense of team-up across the stories among the characters.

I don't want this, too. I want a big story, which allows playing your character in his world and fight against typical dangers in the world. The communication should (maybe) only possible between a character and his counterpart on the other world. This communication should e.g. be mental or with visions/dreams. Other ("normal") people and the worlds in general have no idea about the existence of the parallel worlds.

For example, say technology is dependable but limited, while you can do anything with magic but it's inheriently unreliable. 

This is an interesting idea. Maybe the SciFi world has no experience with magic. The evil guy kidnaps a powerful magician (or maybe only steals his knowledge). He brings him to the SciFi world and uses his magical abilities.
It would be very easy, when you are a powerful magician, to break into Fort Knox because no security system can help against teleport and invisibility.

One idea might be interesting, as well. I think about a story, that the characters at the SciFi world need information from the characters at the fantasy world. Maybe there is a sunken civilization, which lived on every world (or maybe only a few explorers lived on this world and research some interesting secrets).

The question is: what kind of information can a character need from a character on the fantasy world?

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

May I brainstorm?

First, let's assume the fantasy world and sci fi world are the SAME world at different times.

A civilization still exists in the fantasy world that is "dead" in the sci fi world. Fantasy character must influence this civilization to [do X] so that [X] is available to the sci fi world's archaeologist characters. [X] can defeat The Evil Nemesis® and, unfortunately, is heavily guarded in the sci fi world. (I call this "Bill & Ted's Excellent RPG".)

In general, the fantasy world CAN communicate with the sci fi world... one-way, through antiquities. That ancient obelisk with strange glyphs? It's a warning from the fantasy world's characters! (Who can decipher it?)

It's a bit more problematic when you want to go "backwards" and let the sci fi world impinge upon the fantasy world. Or maybe I am taking the timeline thought too far, and these are actually parallel worlds (contemporaneous, but not in the same spacetime)?

SO... if they are parallel dimensions, then you have a lot of classic "throw both switches" scenarios options (no matter what the metaphorical "switch" might be: your bees & monster paring is a good example). Also, you need to decide if you are taking the approach that a dimension "asserts its paradigm" (like Torg or Mage) or if tech-is-tech-is-tech (i.e. independent of the "world," like Rifts, IIRC). You seem to assume the latter, with your expressed concerns about bringing sci fi weapons to fantasy worlds and vice versa.

(Aside: Who says a machine gun is more unbalancing or powerful than Magic Missles, anyway? Why does sci fi get the "game breaker" rap, but you think nothing of a sci fi villain harnessing fantasy mages to do his dirty work in the sci fi world? Just curious why the "one-way bias.")

Still rambling....

So... how could a sci fi world impact a fantasy one...? I used to image some very interresting cross-over games where Victorians were using Well's time machine to colonize the past (Dark Ages), and BOY was that fertile ground for plots (and easily justified: we have very few records from the Dark Ages... why is that? ;) ) Dictators of whole kingdoms, holding their power with gunpowder against the last remnants of the nature-magic-wielding Druids. Inventions coming centuries too soon, yet not quite working out anyway (magic wasn't dead, and I was sort of Mage influenced).

OK that's enough to maybe spark more ideas. I don't want to sidetrack the thread with a bunch of tangential ideas or specifics, when you are still hammering at the general concepts of cross-over and efficacy and theme.

HTH;
David

[Jixxala]

I ran a campaign very much like this once.  It worked very well.  My premise was that it was the SAME world (like mentioned above).  Both groups had to solve an ongoing problem.  The characters never interacted, but of course the players knew differently ... after a while.  At first the players enjoyed the game, but did not even know things were paralleled.  They created one character, the fantasy and I created the Sci-Fi for them.  Of course it was simply a mirror of the fantasy with a tech twist.  Each session alternated between fantasy and sci-fi.

The interesting point came when the fantasy characters got transported to the future and the techies to the past.  Future characters pretty much wrote it off as time travel, but had difficulties with the antiquated dilaect and difficulty with every day life without modern convenience.  The fantasy characters thought it was a magic time travel spell.  In the fantasy world magic really did exist, on the sci-fi it did not.  Charaters who failed certain checks would begin to question the very nature of existence and reality and began to border on insanity. 

Anyway in the end the problem was solved.  It took about 6 months of play to work it all out, but it was great fun.  Here are some issues that were difficult and you need to adress.  Can characters communicate over time?  If not that is ok too.  If they can how?  Does the magic past believe in a techy future or does the the future know of a magic using past?  In my games they did not, this caused for some interesting play.  Character sees a cell phone.  Player must tell me on the spot in 30 seconds what nature of magic makes this thing work.  If they cannot they must roll a check.  If they can we go on.  This way I did not have to tell them what they thought, they did that themselves.  This made the players more involved with the game and they felt invested in the "reality" of it. 

The big question is, what is the problem that spans time.  A simple magic/tech item or some exterior concept will work but it really is just another permiatation of a get the dragon's treasure.  How can you make it different?  Maybe the fantasy group lets a bad guy go (or even some good guy, or even a member of the party) who goes on to form a clan that one day rules the world.  This clan has total control over time travel and actively ensures that their past is not disturbed.  The sci-fi group must stop the clan from traveling back in time to stop the fantasy group from killing the clan founder.  Who knows, it is up to you.  Take it and run with it.  You do not even have to have it all planed out when you start!  Something may emerge that is better than we can armchair DM at this moment.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

[JayDaWarlord]

To me this sounds like the game Chrono Cross.  However, they did change both worlds a lot. 

In Final Fantasy 8, there were dream scenes in which you would go back in time to another character and both of the main characters could only feel like they knew each other somwhow but weren't sure.  They never really effected the world until the end of the game when they finally met in the present time.

Dont know if either of these games contain the kind of stuff your looking for, but it never hurts to look into them.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Obviously, there is the time traveling BBEG as mentioned earlier. But, there could be an Alternate Dimensional BBEG. Perhaps it is a dimension that does not have magic or hi-tech, but can touch multiple dimensions/times. Or even a demi-god who's supernatural powers allow them to contact both worlds.
  As to communication, you either have to allow the world to take care of itself (spells and gadgets) or limit communications to dreams if at all. I think the idea limiting the transmission of technology fixes itself. How much of transistor technology could you communicate to a medieval sage?Assuming that there is some sort of time limit in this scenario, characters won't have the time, energy or inclination to teach each other unknown tech/magic.
  Sounds cool, keep us posted on your progress!

[jerry]

Regarding the time travel version, White Dwarf had something like this in issues 80/81; "Ancient and Modern" by Graeme Staplehurst. It was written for Call of Cthulhu (Modern) and AD&D (Ancient).

You might want to look at Isaac Asimov's The Gods Themselves for ideas and themes.

http://www.hoboes.com/Mimsy/?ART=161

For example, in that book if too much stuff gets traded, physical laws get traded, too. You could easily add an information counterpart to "stuff".

Also, it's a very good book.

Jerry

[Alex-01]

SO... if they are parallel dimensions, then you have a lot of classic "throw both switches" scenarios options (no matter what the metaphorical "switch" might be: your bees & monster paring is a good example). Also, you need to decide if you are taking the approach that a dimension "asserts its paradigm" (like Torg or Mage) or if tech-is-tech-is-tech (i.e. independent of the "world," like Rifts, IIRC). You seem to assume the latter, with your expressed concerns about bringing sci fi weapons to fantasy worlds and vice versa.

I think the best way for this setting is the tech-is-tech-is-tech-way with parallel dimensions.

So... how could a sci fi world impact a fantasy one...? I used to image some very interresting cross-over games where Victorians were using Well's time machine to colonize the past (Dark Ages), and BOY was that fertile ground for plots (and easily justified: we have very few records from the Dark Ages... why is that? ;) ) Dictators of whole kingdoms, holding their power with gunpowder against the last remnants of the nature-magic-wielding Druids. Inventions coming centuries too soon, yet not quite working out anyway (magic wasn't dead, and I was sort of Mage influenced).
OK that's enough to maybe spark more ideas. I don't want to sidetrack the thread with a bunch of tangential ideas or specifics, when you are still hammering at the general concepts of cross-over and efficacy and theme.

I think it's more easy to use the inductive way. I try to work out some examples/scenario ideas and test them with some players. Your example helped me to develop another idea: The evil guy is "stealing" the soul/knowledge of a power mage and jumps from the fantasy world to our world (only evil guys can travel between the worlds). With this magical knowledge he has no problem break into Fort Knox - no security system helps you against teleport and invincibility. On the other hand, it must be possible to steal knowledge from our world and bring it to the fantasy world. The problem is the tech level. don't want black powder, engines, planes or other tech-ideas in the fantasy worlds. Maybe it has to be somthing "tech-neutral".

Here are some issues that were difficult and you need to adress.  Can characters communicate over time?  If not that is ok too.  If not that is ok too.  If they can how? 

Thank you Jixxala for sharing your GM experience with me.
I think it would be helpful/interesting to communicate between the worlds. It shouldn't be a "normal" communication and it should not be possible to share "technical" secrets but I think this idea needs a communication.

Does the magic past believe in a techy future or does the the future know of a magic using past? 

The characters will never leave their world, so I will not have a problem with tech and magic. The idea with the telephone cell is very interesting, but I should not happen, when the characters are fixed in their universe.

The big question is, what is the problem that spans time.  A simple magic/tech item or some exterior concept will work but it really is just another permiatation of a get the dragon's treasure

This is my problem. I don't want to create another cliché/treasure hunt but the idea of solving (together) a problem that spans time is very interesting and will content a lot of interesting scenario ideas.

To me this sounds like the game Chrono Cross.  However, they did change both worlds a lot. 
In Final Fantasy 8, there were dream scenes in which you would go back in time to another character and both of the main characters could only feel like they knew each other somwhow but weren't sure.  .

Thank you JayDaWarlord for these two examples. I didn't play the games but I found (and will read) articles about their story.

Hi!
  Obviously, there is the time traveling BBEG as mentioned earlier. But, there could be an Alternate Dimensional BBEG. Perhaps it is a dimension that does not have magic or hi-tech, but can touch multiple dimensions/times. Or even a demi-god who's supernatural powers allow them to contact both worlds.
  As to communication, you either have to allow the world to take care of itself (spells and gadgets) or limit communications to dreams if at all. I think the idea limiting the transmission of technology fixes itself. How much of transistor technology could you communicate to a medieval sage?Assuming that there is some sort of time limit in this scenario, characters won't have the time, energy or inclination to teach each other unknown tech/magic.

This post describes exactly the way I want to follow. The BBEG comes from another dimension and have abilities to switch between the worlds. As I mentioned above it would be very useful for him to "steal" a magic ability and use it in the future/present. An example for the future: Maybe it should be possible to "steal" the ability of master scientist (e.g. biologist) who will still be a master scientist in the fantasy world (but on the level of the fantasy world). With this knowledge he can create a new and unknown poison/pathogen.

Regarding the time travel version, White Dwarf had something like this in issues 80/81; "Ancient and Modern" by Graeme Staplehurst. It was written for Call of Cthulhu (Modern) and AD&D (Ancient).
You might want to look at Isaac Asimov's The Gods Themselves for ideas and themes.
http://www.hoboes.com/Mimsy/?ART=161

Thank you, Jerry, for your book-tips. I will read them as soon as possible.