Heroism of the Dour-men and the Silvans

[algi]

Hi!

This is my first post, but please don't be gentle with my wanna-be-rpg. First of all: I try to focus on the point but I kinda used to stray, so sorry about that. Second: I'm Hungarian, and the names in the game have been written all in Hungarian, so it might sound funny in English after my translation. I hope this submission is okay for the forum rules.

First the legend of the wolrd was born. The specific story is not important right now, but I think the heroic stories are very important for me. I bend the story until I get a world that I imagined aforhand (is that the right word?), and it was inspired by the Silmarillion. But I realised that I don't want to have no elves and no dwarves and nothing halfling like (hobbits, gnomes, goblins and kender - I don't even know what kender is originally aside that I read the Dragonlance trilogy). So I made up two races that help to make good stories.

I would like to get some feedback about the two races and the diceless heroism system.

The "Dour" people (I hope the name isn't too funny) are somewhat stronger in stature than humans. The Dours are how you imagine humans in a sword-and-sorcery fantasy world. The men have big muscles and the women are round in the right places (imagine the pictures of Valejo) and most of all, they mostly have a Fate. Fate means that the character will fulfill it, the player can't do anything against it, the GM guarantees is. So the character won't die until he/she fulfills his/her Fate. They are somewhat based upon dwarves: they like to build with stones huge buildings, towers and cities.

The "Silvans" are shorter and thinner than humans, and have a pale skin. They are born from the woods and live there. They are a very theoretical people and are the masters of magic and they can use metamagic (magic that have effects on magic itself). They are secretive and hold to each other and don't have many connections with the other races. I think they are inspired by the Elves of the Bloodwood from Earthdawn (if I guess right their English name), but toned down very much. They're kinda melancholic crosses between elves and halflings.

So I had a concept from the start out, that I won't have luck in my system - it was kind of a tick of me. Than I realised that dice are antiheroic. The dice make heroes die by chance and small fellows do _accidentally_ great deeds. It's fun, but definitively not the fantasy heroism I imagined for my game. It's too cyberpunkish for me. There I can imagine that some beggar kills by random chance a professional assassin.

My diceless system is simple (and probably not a great reform, but... did I say it's simple?) but I hope it's gonna be fun. Every character has some points in each of their skills. (It's not that simple, but chargen can come later.) And every character has some "life points". ("Hit points" are called "life points" in Hungarian. Soon you'll understand why I mistranslated.) If a character wants to do something that is not sure to succeed (called a "test" or "proving"), he looks at the situation, knows from the rulesbook the standard modifiers and tries to make up how strong the enemy is and depending upon these informations the player takes away some points of his skill and puts it into the test. (The skill value decreases, the test value increases.) The bigger test value wins. The hook is: there is only one unknown factor for the player: how much points put the adversary into the opposing test value. If the skill value drops the player has the option of putting his life points into the test value. If the character doesn't win than gets injured proportionally to the used life points.

I hope I made it clear. It's hard to speak systems in another language.

[apeiron]

Welcome to the Forge!

Hmm, i'd switch Dour with something foreign that means the same thing.

How many points would someone have?

[Eric J. Boyd]

Hi algi,

Some questions about your diceless system:

1) Do both the winner and loser of a test lose the points of skill they put into the test?

2) How do points of skill and life refresh back to their original values?

3) Do the player and GM both write down how many points they're using for the test and reveal simultaneously?

4) How do the standard modifiers work - do they just add to the GM number that the player must beat?

5) Do you see this as being a system where you resolve a whole fight in one test (a conflict-resolution system) or where each set of maneuvers gets a test of its own (a task resolution system)? Which you choose will have a big impact on the extent to which characters get their points depleted and the general flow of play.

In addition to my questions, my concern in using such a system is that the player has to be very familiar with the modifiers and the GM has to telegraph enemy strengths clearly in order for the player to effectively use his points. You might consider adding methods that the player can use to revise the number of points he's put into the test after the GM reveals - maybe narrating flashbacks where the character was in a similar incident, or expending a resource that works as extra points post-reveal, etc.

I definitely like the resource allocation aspects of the system. Playtesting it for finetuning should work out any kinks.

Cheers,

Eric

[billvolk]

Hi and welcome to the Forge! Your English is clear enough to understand; don't worry about it.

I like the ideas behind your Dour people, and I think that they would make great player characters, but I think you should change their name. It's not exactly funny, but it reminds people too much of dwarves. ("dour" and "taciturn" are two words that thousands of Americans learned for the first time by reading the Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook description of dwarves.) Though they're industrious like dwarves, your Dour-people seem to be more focused on progress and personal accomplishment than tradition, making them more like European and American humans during the Industrial Revolution, or possibly the protagonists of Ayn Rand novels. If normal humans exist in this game, Dour people will seem larger-than-life, and possibly even more "human," in comparison.

I have some questions about how destiny will work in the game: Do the players choose their characters' destinies, or does the GM? If the GM does, how much do the players know? Also, what keeps a Dour-person from avoiding his fate and living forever, or from taking a lot of dangerous risks with certainty that they won't kill him?

[algi]

Hi!

Thanks for the feedback.

Apeiron:

I think we could use the original term: "morc" (pronounced as morts or mortz). It's goind to be surely kind of exotic. :)

The number of points would depend on character generation. I prefer to go into it later, else I would start to explain the whole book and it would last forever. (Maybe I'll going to try to do it on weekend.) Let's say, the amount of points equals the skill value.

Eric:

1) They both lose their points, because I try to simulate the exhaustion (or fatigue) by it. They put their points as stake in, and the winner gets the success as the stake, not the points. The loser loses everything.

2) That's an interesting point. I'm thinking on a daily basis of refreshing and it is quite obvious to link it together with the characters' daily cycle, so it refreshes when sleeping. I read just the other day The Two Towers (again) and it seemed very important how much they (Frodo and Sam) had (or hadn't) slept on the journey. This isn't simulated at all right now in those few systems I know. This way the player will be telling the GM that his/her character is tired and would like to have a sleep instead of vice versa as it used to be.

3) Theoretically yes, but if the GM is the omnipotent player as I knew it till now, then the GM can cheat. I am thinking of some modification of that role, but it's not crystal clear to me yet exactly how and - most of all - how much.

4) They just add together. I want only the simplest mathematical operations during play. While character generation I allow one multiply but during play you only have to add and subtract or something went wrong.

5) I plan a 2 level system. There are deeds that are covered by a rulebook (fight or magic) and there are deeds that aren't covered by the used books. The first ones have the options to played out detailed and the second doesn't. I think in detailed mode the player has more chance to accomplish bigger things with the same amount of cost. If the testplay will tell that it's the other way around, than it's bad. :)

You are right that about the player has to know thoroughly the standard modifiers, but I promote to the players that they look over the part in wich their characters are specialized. I think all the modifiers (of one certain aspect) can be covered on one page only. (It's no more than a list.) The other thing about the GM's task: I think the GM's duty is not only to tell what the character sees, but what the character could know and is of important, that the player don't know. I think the challenge mustn't come from the fact that the player doesn't know the world enough. The GM has to help the player to play the character's role right. I think it's a cooperation, and the GM is not the enemy but the ally of the player to make the story (and in the story the characters, too) "believable". (I'm sure there is a better word.)

billvolk:

I think somehow you catched the dour-people or morcs (or taciturm-people for that matter :), and you didn't simultanousley. They are absolute into tradition, I think more than the humans, but personal accomplishment and larger-than-life is correct. If I have to make a literally semblance, they would be the humans from Robert E. Howard's Conan stories. They are classic sword and sorcery fantasy humans. They build big towers: they are the ones who built the great magic-school buildings for the humans because they couldn't build it right. But the humans integrated the races, peoples into their cities. Every race can wield another aspect of the magic best: the humans the magic that affects mostly the minds, but the morcs the magic that affects the matter. The morc mages are the ones who shoot fireballs and magic missiles (or we call it "mamis". Get it? "Mommies". :) around.

The characters themselves (and so their players) don't know about their own destiny until they find out somehow: through guessing or magic. But I don't think it ever will be clear to them, exactly when it is going to happen. It is like in the LotR (sorry for the many examples from it, but I'm reading it just right now) Gandalf could tell that something is right to happen or that someone was meant to do something (especially Gollum). But except this I am fully intend to allow the characters this possibilities to exploit. It is something kind of an alignment.

I planned this as a part of a series of "stamps" or "brands" (branding sign or something like it). Their would be for example the aformentioned "fate", the "magic" that means: the character can wield magic without any magical backstory, the "demonhunter" that means the character is protected against demons etc. I once wrote them into a table but I'm going to reimagine it.

Thanks again for all.

[Ron Edwards]

I really like the ideas in this thread.

For terminology, I suggest using Hungarian words. Hungary is cool and the language is exotic and romantic to western readers, especially if it applies to very specific groups or game terms.

Have you seen the game Pace? It provides a great application of some of the same ideas, not identical, but with any luck, thought-provoking for you.

Please keep working on this system, and when you can, post a rough document, maybe only 5 pages or so, that can be used for basic play. You'll get a lot of playtesting from people at this forum, I'm sure.

Best, Ron

[Judd]

The hook is: there is only one unknown factor for the player: how much points put the adversary into the opposing test value. If the skill value drops the player has the option of putting his life points into the test value. If the character doesn't win than gets injured proportionally to the used life points.

The way the two different kind of points interact looks like a whole lot of fun and the term, Dour Men just makes me smile.  It is very Swords & Sorcery.

I hope you post a link to the rules some time or post about how play works out for you.

Thanks for posting.

[algi]

Hi!

Thanks, Ron, for the suggestion. We can (and for the consistency we should) call the dour people "morcs", and the silvans "erdelis". But it doesn't matter right now, because we won't meet tham any time soon.

I read the Pace since then, and it was very useful, although I wouldn't like to go that way.

I'm working right now on a short book for the start of playtesting and I hope to finish it this weekend. But still there is the problem of translation that will consume almost as much time as to write it. I fleshed out some of the legends and history of the world, and I have just the right spot when it was somewhat simpler to make it into a playtesters rulebook.

I promise next time I post, it will be material, be it book or no book.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

One last suggestion: we don't need a book. You may be surprised by how little material a playtest document needs. If you provide one page about the setting, one page about the point and general look & feel of play, and a few pages of rules, then that will be enough.

One of the most common, and most destructive assumptions of new game designers is that they feel they must write a whole book before anyone can playtest their game. I hope you don't fall into that trap.

Best, Ron

[Bret Gillan]

Algi,

I have a thought about the refreshing of Skill points - what if instead of refreshing it on a daily basis you had to do something specific, like to refresh archery you have you have to target practice. Or, alternately, depending on which race you are you might have to spend some time in the woods (for the Silvans) and the Dour-men have to spend some time in a city.

[algi]

Hi!

Ron:

It's a semantical problem: under book I mean a document that is possible to playtest. I didn't integrated the game elements yet into one document and I didn't test them yet at all, except some number testing in Chargen.

Bret:

At the start when I decided to make a diceless system it was an obvious choice for me to use a point allocation system, and from that it was quite obvious, too that the points have to be refreshed. I decided beside the daily-sleeping method, because I think that in the real world (and thatswhy in most of the fantasy settings) sleeping is a core element of the humans (people). Ironically it is that much deep in us, that we don't even see it until we stumble upon tiredness and sleeplessness. It would be an evasion, a strategy of ostrich not to link together the refreshing and the sleeping - I think it would be a shame to evade it.

Besides I don't see the point why should the values refresh after practicing. I think practicing is to better (or after a time) to uphold the values - I mean the maximums.

I go back to work on the "playtest document" (the RPG formerly known as "book" :). Soon there will be a translation I promise.

[algi]

Hi!

The weather cooled down here somewhat so I can use my grey cells. I wrote a skeleton of the system in English. You can find it here:

"http://algi.web.elte.hu/rpg/algi_rpg.pdf"

It is hardly playable, because it still needs source materials to work. I'm already working on it, but it will be hard to translate that. (I'm rather graphomaniac but it isn't matched by my English, alas!)

I was thinking on the other day how could be a wizard duel be exciting. I was thinking about something like playing chess and clashing of mind and intelligence, and I came up with the following:

It was already decided that in my world everything is "magical". Because magic is change. Magic is time. Magic is that everything is what it is. In real life if you leave a piece of iron on a shelf beside a magnet and forget about it until very much time later, the iron becomes a magnet, too. Now, that's magic. We could say, the "mana" of the magnet repressed the "mana" of the iron by being so close together side by side. In my world the magnet also becomes more like the iron.

So all this decided before, I came up that the wizards have to convince their enviroment to be their allies in the duel or contest or magical fight. For example in a generic fantasy world a druid could easily convince the plants. And these allies from that on work as relay posts for their magic. Like if they would be part of the wizard itself - only magically.

Sorry, it's hard to explain, because I don't understand it yet fully.

By the way, you can have a look at this, too (I hope Ron doesn't mind if I link it in): "http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/Mighty_Ones.php"

Thanks,
algi