Dueling

[Lyrax]

Jake - How long do you want the finished product?  And do you have any comments, one way or the other, about anything?  I assume you at least liked the introductory part of it.

Those of you who are clueless - ignore me.  I am of no consequence to you.  Yet...

[Jake Norwood]

Like a girl's skirt...long enough to cover the subject, short enough to keep interest. We'll be using it for the website.

Jake

[Rattlehead]

Ok... another question regarding the duel between Julianos and Tiberius:

Lance and I we're chatting and he brought this to my attention...

We dropped dice (red or white for initiative) after every round. It says in the book, on page 73 (top of right column) that you repeat step 2 every round. BUT, in the example on page 89, they start round 2 without dropping dice. Did we do it wrong then? It would appear so.

The way I get it, there are multiple ways to determine initiative: either die dropping or the result of combat exchanges. When step 2 is repeated, it's done the latter way, unless there's a pause.

In other words, I think we made another mistake in the duel there. What's the "official" call, Jake?

Thanks,
   Brandon

[Jake Norwood]

The red/white die thing is only thrown at the beginning of a bout or after a pause. Where it says "determine initiave" in Step two, remember that that is usually done by just giving the initiative to the winner of the last exchange. That's quite clear throughout the examples and other rules in the chapter, but I can see how confusion could set in (especially when people use other RPG's as thier example). Thanks for the heads up.

Jake

[Rattlehead]

Thanks again Jake! You never cease to amaze me. I can't think of any game developer who goes to such lengths to help his community!  You sir, are one cool dude.

Brandon

[Lance D. Allen]

Hey Brandon, check out any game on this website, and I bet you'll find the same or similar level of support. I'm getting the feeling that this level of support is a good part of what indie published games are about.

As for questions... I can only hope Jake isn't getting tired of the two of us, specifically... 'cause I got another one highlighted by last night's duel. First though, a short rave..

I love this game. I mean, you totally defeat an opponent in almost any other game, and you get to go describe it to your friends as "Yeah man, I took him down to 1 hit point in 3 good shots!" whereas in Riddle of Steel, it's more like.. "After some brief exchange, I eventually gave him a good gash in the head, dislocated his hip with a body slam, and shattered his knee." Additionally, when I decided that my character would try to take his opponent alive, I didn't have to go looking for any rules covering subdual damage or such.. I just directed my shots to non-lethal areas and non-lethal attacks, the same as you would in real life if you wanted to take someone down without killing them. It's intuitive like that..
Although it does take some time when both players are exploring new maneuvers, and are constantly having to stop to read rules, and verify the rules for each other. ::grins::

Okay, so here's my question.. Tiberius has Cut and Thrust as his highest proficiency, but he also has brawling pugilism. For the sake of not bogging down the battle, I just asked Brandon to make a judgement call if it was okay for me to use brawling maneuvers (specifically the offensive grapple) with my full CP from Cut and Thrust. He said it was okay with him, so I went ahead.. But I'm curious about that. I know it's pretty cut and dried if you try to use maneuvers from a proficiency you don't have (use the defaults) or if you switch to a different weapon style (say, if I'd dropped my sword and arming glove just to grapple) but what's the call if you want to use maneuvers from another proficiency you have, but at a lower level, in addition to the standard maneuvers from your primary proficiency?

Also, with grappling, it describes two types of grapple... The set-up and the straight grapple.. I assume then that you can toss someone in a straight grapple, but that you cannot pin unless you do a set-up grapple first. And is it possible to use a Defensive Grapple (from Cut and Thrust) to grab the opponent's weapon and attempt to disarm them? I thought I'd read something to that effect, but I couldn't find it when I went back to verify it.

That's all from me for now. Thanks in advance.

[Lance D. Allen]

Okay, so here's my question.. Tiberius has Cut and Thrust as his highest proficiency, but he also has brawling pugilism. For the sake of not bogging down the battle, I just asked Brandon to make a judgement call if it was okay for me to use brawling maneuvers (specifically the offensive grapple) with my full CP from Cut and Thrust. He said it was okay with him, so I went ahead.. But I'm curious about that. I know it's pretty cut and dried if you try to use maneuvers from a proficiency you don't have (use the defaults) or if you switch to a different weapon style (say, if I'd dropped my sword and arming glove just to grapple) but what's the call if you want to use maneuvers from another proficiency you have, but at a lower level, in addition to the standard maneuvers from your primary proficiency?

Okay, I've been thinking about this, and I think I may have come up with a possible solution. To clarify the situation, here is what I mean... I am mostly using the maneuvers as described under my primary proficiency, but at one point, I want to use a maneuver described under my secondary proficiency. My solution is this: Check the default penalty under the proficiency you wish to use to the one you are currently using. If your rating in that secondary proficiency is greater than the default penalty, you may use it at your full primary proficiency number, so long as you are still using the primary proficiency for that combat. If the proficiency is less than the default number, then you take a penalty equal to the default penalty minus the proficiency.

Example: Tiberius has Cut and Thrust at 8, and pugilism/brawling at 4. He wishes to punch (a maneuver from pugilism) his opponent, so therefore compares his pugilism proficiency (4) to the default penalty from pugilism to cut-and-thrust (-4) His proficiency is the same as the penalty, so he can use the maneuver without penalty alongside his Cut-and-Thrust attacks. If his proficiency were 3, then he would have a -1 CP for that maneuver.

Note that this cannot be used to reduce the cost of maneuvers which are covered by the primary proficiency. For example, you cannot use your Wrestling proficiency to do a defensive grapple at an activation cost of (1) rather than two if you are primarily using Cut & Thrust, which allows the maneuver at a (2) activation cost.

As for grappling, I still do not know exactly how that works, in terms of straight grapples and set-up grapples. Also, what places the activation cost at 4 (as described under pugilism, offensive grappling (2 or 4))?

I hope I'm not being a nuisance, but as I see grappling as a possibly very useful technique in close-in fighting. Therefore, I'd like to know more specifically how it works.

[Jaif]

Wolfen,

I don't agree with your interpretation, mostly because it sounds too forgiving<g>.  I'm probably being silly, but I'd pull dice from the combat pool equal to the difference between the two proficiencies.

For the situation where, say, a cut-n-thrust counter ends up in a grapple, I'd keep the cut-n-thrust pool as-is for the follow-up. I assume that the specific grapple being used is part of the cut-n-thrust proficiency.  Later grapples, though, I'd deal with as above.

Standard disclaimer: I'm not Jake. :-)

Also, what places the activation cost at 4 (as described under pugilism, offensive grappling (2 or 4))?

I assumed the 2-4 was the difference between a 2-round setup and a 1-round do-it-all-at-once.  It's standard wrestling: you either work a position first, then the take-down is easy, or you risk all (spend many dice) and shoot for an immediate take-down.

-Jeff

[Lance D. Allen]

I don't agree with your interpretation, mostly because it sounds too forgiving<g>. I'm probably being silly, but I'd pull dice from the combat pool equal to the difference between the two proficiencies.

That would be worse than defaulting in most circumstances. As it stands with my character, it would be exactly the same, number-wise, as defaulting.. Unless the difference was 3 or less, it wouldn't even be worth having the proficiency at all.. Having the second proficiency should make it *easier* to pull off a maneuver, not harder.

Example: Default from pugilism to C&T is -4. If my Pugilism proficiency were 2, that would be a penalty of -6! That would be worse than not having the proficiency at all, which is exactly NOT the point. The only way that such a rule would be advantageous over simply defaulting would be if I had a Pugilism proficiency of 5-7.

For the situation where, say, a cut-n-thrust counter ends up in a grapple, I'd keep the cut-n-thrust pool as-is for the follow-up. I assume that the specific grapple being used is part of the cut-n-thrust proficiency. Later grapples, though, I'd deal with as above.

No, I'm speaking more as where the Cut & Thruster gets in close to an opponent, grapples, and body slams them, rather than cutting, or thrusting.. Not in a defensive grapple.

I assumed the 2-4 was the difference between a 2-round setup and a 1-round do-it-all-at-once. It's standard wrestling: you either work a position first, then the take-down is easy, or you risk all (spend many dice) and shoot for an immediate take-down.

This makes sense. That's probably the way it works, though hopefully Jake will clarify if it isn't. Also, I'm still curious if a defensive grapple can be used (in conjunction with an arming glove) to grab an opponent's weapon and attempt to disarm them.

::grins evilly, considering the possibilities of *that* maneuver::

"What do you mean he jerks my sword out of my hand??"

[Jaif]

Example: Default from pugilism to C&T is -4. If my Pugilism proficiency were 2, that would be a penalty of -6!

No, I think you misread the character progression or default rules.  Let's take two situations.

1) You have C&T at a 6.  This means your pugilism is a 2, and my rule is that if you switch, you drop 4 dice.

2) You have C&T at a 6, and spend your remaining proficiency points to raise your pugilism by 2.  This means you have a pugilism of 4, and my rule is you drop 2 dice if you switch to pugilism.

I'm positive the character progression rules said you could start training from your default level.

-Jeff

[Ron Edwards]

Jeff,

Big positive on that last sentence. Jake affirmed it to me just last evening.

Just to run it down with all steps in:
- Say Proficiency X permits Proficiency Y at -4.
- Buy Proficiency X for six dice, getting Y at X-value minus 4, equals 2.
- Spend (say) three more Proficiency points on Y, and its value is now 2+3 = 5.
- You have X at six and Y at five.

Best,
Ron

[Lance D. Allen]

I think you've totally misunderstood me. My character is a beginning character (as I have not played other than a few duels, he has not advanced) and all proficiencies have been bought with beginning Proficiency points. I did not get my second proficiency through character advancement, so I don't get to start it off at default level... If I could as a beginning character, I'd have a MUCH higher pugilism, that's for certain!

My proficiencies are as follows:

Cut and Thrust: 8
Pugilism/Brawling: 4
Bow: 3

(Priority A for 14 points +1 point for being Stahlnish)

At this point, I *HAVE* pugilism. I am not defaulting to it when I use it in combat. I paid the points so I wouldn't have to default when I wanted to punch someone or grapple offensively.
if what you said in 2) were true for a beginning character, I could spend my 4 points to raise Pugilism from it's default of 4 to 8, which would effectively give me 19 points. Further, I could instead spend 1 point to raise pugilism to 5, spend another point to raise dagger to 5 (-4 default) another to make greatsword a 6 (-3 default) and dopplehander a 5 as well.

While the advancement rules do indeed state that you can buy a new proficiency as if it were it's default level, but this does not apply to new characters. If you did not realize my character was new when you made the assumptions you did, I then apologize for my lengthy examples.

So in the case as I described above, doing as you said in your previous post would be disadvantageous. Perhaps my suggestion is not the best either, but I can think of nothing better at this time.

[Jaif]

While the advancement rules do indeed state that you can buy a new proficiency as if it were it's default level, but this does not apply to new characters.

Ok I assumed, but Ron confirmed above, that this also applies at start.  Your character should have an 8 in pugilism, which should make everything easy. :-)

Stahl kicks-butt. :-)

-Jeff

[Lance D. Allen]

::raises an eyebrow::

Big positive on that last sentence. Jake affirmed it to me just last evening.

Just to run it down with all steps in:
- Say Proficiency X permits Proficiency Y at -4.
- Buy Proficiency X for six dice, getting Y at X-value minus 4, equals 2.
- Spend (say) three more Proficiency points on Y, and its value is now 2+3 = 5.
- You have X at six and Y at five.

Was I wrong, or does this only apply to character advancement? If it applies during character creation, beginning player characters are going to be a LOT more versatile than I'd originally thought...

[Nick the Nevermet]

Thats an interesting list of proficiencies, especially since you told me the character uses a short sword.

It sounds like your character would be at his best effective in tight spaces.  Was this the intent behind making him, or did you just think (like me) that short swords are cool? ;)

as for building off defaults during chargen... you're right, it doesn't say that, and I'm not sure how I'd feel about that.  I think it'd depend on the players.  On one side it fits logically into things to let new characters build off the defaults.  ("Why would I bother having a 2 in proficiency A when I start I can get a default value of 4 for free?")

On the other hand, some players who don't 'get' that TROS isn't just about combat would jump for joy at this for all the wrong reasons. (Wrong reason being "Sweet! I get to kills things in different ways! I ROOOL!")