Hard Choices

[thwaak]

Would you rather...

a) Get paid upon printing (for the purpose of this question, assume anywhere between one and three thousand dollars) and have someone else worry about production, warehousing, and so on... but no royalties, and little to no creative control over your game once it sees print.

or

b) Go the indie route, shouldering all the costs of production, art, marketing and other factors, in return for who knows how much money, if any, but has the potential to make money, and you have ultimate control over your work.

I suspect the majority of you would answer B (this being the forge), but I'm sort of in this boat right now...weighing the options...and I would appreciate not only your choice...but why you would choose it.

Thanks,
-Brent

[andrew_kenrick]

I'd prefer B, although I have gone down both routes in the past (and as a working freelancer, still frequent path A from time to time). As someone who's tried both, I definitely prefer keeping control over my own projects, for good or for bad. I like having creative control, making sure the project comes out just how I want it to. And, I won't deny it, it gives me a little thrill to know that this project is here, like it is today, because of me and no one else.

If you decide to turn it over to a publisher, then you are (usually) guaranteed to get a certain amount for it, possibly far in excess of the amount you'd make yourself. Likewise you don't have to put any more into it but your time and energies, not risk your money. But equally the project becomes less "yours" - you become just the writer. You have to share it with other people, your vision is watered down with other people's visions for the project.

If you go the self-publishing route, then you put your own money on the table, which I won't deny carries a greater risk. But equally the potential gains are greater, if the project does better than expected. But going this route, there are no guarantees of anything. However, the project remains yours throughout, retains your integrity of vision, and the credit is yours alone.

So you have on the one hand, security and monetary guarantees, and then on the other hand, creative control and integrity. Which do you want out of this project?

[lumpley]

Brent, I'm sure you have your own expectations for success, but for me personally? One to three thousand dollars would be financial suicide.

-Vincent

[Justin D. Jacobson]

It depends on the circumstances. Option B is nice in a vacuum. For me, right now (with an 8-month old and just having come of a behemoth like Helios Rising), I would find Option A to be very enticing. Option A clearly would tie up less of your time.

[MatrixGamer]

How many hours of labor are you putting into the book? Say your paid $10 an hour for your time. At $1000 that is 100 hours - 2 1/2 weeks. Have you put more than that into it? How much more? Is it even coming up to minimum wage?

I'll work for slave wages for myself but I'm much less inclined to write games for those wages.

Wouldn't you rather be playing games?

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games
"I am the Hamster's bitch."

[andrew_kenrick]

Brent, I'm sure you have your own expectations for success, but for me personally? One to three thousand dollars would be financial suicide.

And yet I see that as quite a good deal ...

[thwaak]

Andrew - Thank you. You pretty much expressed exactly my thoughts about the pros and cons. And yes, when I think about the possibilities of an indie version of my idea ( I can even imagine a digest sized cover ), it does give me a thrill too.

Vincent - Yes, that much money is probably below what you can expect, but as an untried 'commodity', probably better than I can expect. Which means it would probably be crazy to turn down that money on my part.

Justin & Chris - I've already worked on this idea (Scairy Tales for Savage Worlds) for over 2 1/2 years. And I am 99% complete. So the question becomes for me...do I finish it, take my $ and run, or turn down the pay off to retool and spend even more time on the project with no guaranteed results.

Another point to consider: The money is not guaranteed. I could turn in the project and have it rejected for any number of reasons.

There is also another point to consider, but I wouldn't want to air the details in public. Nothing terrible mind you, but it's merely my view point and suffice to say...I feel better being here, then there, now.


Thank you for your opinions.

[Josh Roby]

Brent, this thread is probably dangerously close to pollishness, but I'd just like to point out that you don't have to choose one option and stick with it for everything.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with selling some manuscripts to publishers and publishing some manuscripts on your own.  I find this an especially apt approach when you consider the question based on the manuscript itself.  Is this something that would be best served by going through some publisher who is not me?  Would it be best served by me publishing it myself?  The hypothetical publisher has one set of resources at their disposal, and I've got another set.  Which set of resources best complements the manuscript?

[thwaak]

I should amend something I've said, because I realize it still sounds too negative. When I said:

...but I wouldn't want to air the details in public. Nothing terrible mind you, but...

Let me just say, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the situation there. It's just not a good fit for me, personally, outside of the game considerations.

Joshua - I suppose every time one asks a question, it could be considered a poll, but it was not my intent to solicit A or B answers, but why someone would choose those. I have a hard choice to make, and getting peoples opinions help me to see things I might not have considered. As to your question, the idea is a hard fit for the system being used. A round peg for a square hole. I've made it work, but at every step I kept thinking it would fit better elsewhere.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Brent,

I'm starting to get the idea that you've already made the decision, or are very close to doing so, and are looking more for reassurance than anything else.

So rather than state "why I like B" for the umpteenth time and dubious value, I'll point out something I noticed in your presentation and Andrew's response.

At first, you referred to option A as having reliable monetary return. Then Andrew, in paraphrasing your options, hedged his statement of that reliability with "usually." And in your latest post, you acknowledge that the money is not guaranteed.

So - the choice seems to break down into:

a) turn all this work over to someone else, and hope to get paid, and (less importantly) hope they don't turn it into crap.

b) publish it yourself, make it the best you can, and then see what the market makes of it.

The money is uncertain in either case, but which version of uncertainty is up to you ... well, I already said I'm into (b), and there's not much point in talking about why. Am I right in thinking that you have pretty much chosen, already?

If so, and if it's (b), I can't reassure you. For all we know, your work is crap (i.e. so might mine be, for my next game, I'm not picking on you) or some awful time-thing will come up and bite you on the butt, keeping you from giving it the marketing attention it deserves. That risk should be balanced against the risk of not being paid ... and although you and Andrew are soft-pedalling the issue a little, that risk should be fairly stated, outright, as "high."

Best, Ron

[thwaak]

Heya Ron,

Yeah, I'm leaning towards B. It's not reassurance I'm looking for though, as I have no illusions about the guarantee of success in this hobby. I'm basically standing at the deep end of the pool, about to jump in, with no life guards in sight. Before I do so, however, I wanted to know if the shallow end has something I'm not aware of yet... something more to offer.

I have a pretty solid consensus that fairly matched my own thoughts now, so I think we can let this thread close.

Thank you all for your time and thoughts.
-Brent

[lumpley]

It's none of my business, but this "deep end of the pool" talk is giving me uneasy feelings.

I endorsed the indie route, so let me be clear: I endorse a particular indie route that includes, as a non-negotiable baseline component, not spending much money up-front. If you're thinking of dropping thousands of dollars on a thousand books - if that's what the "deep end" means - then oh man do I urge you to reconsider.

-Vincent