Guidelines and Suggestions

[Luke Fleeman]

Greetings!

I am a first time poster, so I hope I do not go to far away from the intended use of this area; it just seems the most appropriate ot my question. I will try to be as concise as possible.

I am currently in the beginning stages of designing a Campaign Setting I have been developing. This setting is based on the mythology and history of India, drawing inspiration from the Ramayan and Bhagavad Gita. My intent is to produce a campaign setting that I can distribute and publish. While I have fleshed out the background and setting fairly well, I now come to the true test: actual mechanical design. This is the cause of most of my questions. I though it best to approach the other here for a little bit of advice.

First, my inclination is to design the game under the OGL. This is not only the system I have the most experience with, and I feel most proficient in, but seems tohave the widest appeal. However, with that in mind, I realize that the softening of the d20 market, the abundance of d20 products, and the difficulty in launching new d20 games can be detrimental to my success. I by no means want to be a millionaire off of this, but I want to be able to get the game to people who woudl like it, and I fear that d20 mighthinder this.  What do others suggest in this area? Is it best to go with this, or should I explore other possibilites? I have a fair amount of material already rendered for this system, but I worry it could be problematic in the future.

Second, do people feel there would be any interest in such a setting? I find it very interesting, and I thought it might appeal to at least a small group of people.

Finally, am I stepping on anyone's toes? Is there already such a game? I have been unable to locate any such setting, and so it is my belief one does not exist. I would hate to produce game material that may already exist, or have a running, excellent system as is. If this is the case, I would much rather adapt my material to an existing setting to keep all of the eggs in one basket.

I thank you all for your time and patience, and I apoligize if this post is poorly placed or unwarranted.

-Luke Fleeman

[Josh Roby]

First, I dislike OGL for unthinking kneejerk reasons, but I highly suspect that its basis in Western questing legends would not suit Indian content.  Why not design something specifically for what you want?

Second, with just "India" as a setting, no, I don't think there'd be much interest.  The good news, however, is that it's your job to be a little more specific than "India" and make it sound interesting to people.  What is it about India that makes you want to write a game set there?

Third, Brand Robins actually just finished off a game called Suryamaya which is set in a mythic Indian setting.  I believe it's OGL, and it's published by 3AM Games.  It's coming out... soonish.  Brand himself is leaving for India at this very moment.

[Luke Fleeman]

Not just Inida as a setting. I am specifically looking to model on the epic adventures of the Ramayana, for example. I want the heroism and virtue of that story, and the epic nature of the background, and the many quests of the hero. I hope to be able to capture the flavor of such a setting.

I picked OGL initially because it kind of does fit the motif: the questing group of heroes. I am considering some other mechanics, though. I was more trying to probe others for their feelings about using OGL.

I might have to check out this 3AM games setting, too.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Luke,

Probing for folks' feelings about a publishing issue is probably not the best way to get answers that will help you.

First, if you really want to delve into what the OGL is and how it relates to today's market, then I encourage you to start a new thread in the Publishing forum, asking for information rather than feelings. People can point you to the right links and ask you the right questions to see whether your business plan is a good fit for that system and brand.

Second, let's continue with this thread, here, but focus on the setting, your other question. Again, though, you've framed your question in the form of a poll. That's not going to help you: what if 22 people say "it sux!" and 29 people say "yesss!" What good is that sort of information? The answer is, no good at all.

Instead, I encourage you to present exactly what about Ramayana really turns you on, and which you'd really like to share with others via the role-playing this game will present.

A number of RPG companies have specialized in presenting "settings" in the form of compiling and paraphrasing existing reference texts, then slapping on a few standard task-resolution rolling mechanics. This is not really the approach that leads to successful long-term play. A better plan, for that purpose, is to present inspiration, which, if it is to work, must be honest.

So, just for a moment, never mind the game or even the hobby of role-playing. Answer as a person, from the heart, what really floats your boat about this setting, this material, this topic?

Best, Ron

[Luke Fleeman]

I think what really floats my boat about this setting is the possibilities. In the Ramayana and the Bhagavad-Gita you have these great characters, mysterious races, heroic quests, and epic proportions- all things I love about epic fantasy. However, I feel like some of the flavor of this setting would make for unique experiences for people because it is so different and new.

At the same time, there is this entrenched Caste system, a hierarchy so rigid and formal that is strangles. And a very religous understanding of how your actions in life will affect you in eternity, and how every person has a destiny and a path. And how adhering to this path has your sould on the line. I like that the powers-that-be frequently make forays into the mortal world, and interfere more often than not where they shoudl let people handle things themselves.

I like this sort of paradox. Great heroes on fantastic adventures, but with important social considerations and an exploration of how the society can be unjust or problematic while these virtuous warriors are doing great deeds. Some heroes can be from different castes and cooperate, but never be equal.

With that in mind, I engineered a history, deities, nations and races, all inspired by these myths but with my own ideas, because I think other people may enjoy it. I don't want to compile existing stuff, I want to use what I have made myself. I think the background I developed helps present these epic deeds and social issues well.

The purpose of my inquiry was to get how others felt, not really like good or bad, but to see if there might be an interest, and to see if what appeals to me might appeal to others. I know some people may not like the setting, but the idea might bring them in, in the way they made me interested. I apoligize for the poll nature of the question. I was looking for gut feeligns, to see if there is somethign I have failed to look at or if someone might have a good tip on what to look at in the steps of early design, important considerations and whatnot.

[Josh Roby]

The purpose of my inquiry was to get how others felt, not really like good or bad, but to see if there might be an interest, and to see if what appeals to me might appeal to others.

Luke, while I'm not ever going to stand in the way of market research, and while I think your root motivation was a sensible one, I think you're going about it in the wrong way.  In order to gauge whether other people have an interest in what you enjoy, you have to present what you enjoy -- and present it with specifics.  Using generalities or categories will get you absolutely nowhere.  I might really like Ghandi or the evolution of religious practice, which might make me say I'm interested in India or the Ramayana, but I would not be interested in the same things that interest you.

Additionally, it totally destroys your ability to create an audience.  Look at Dogs in the Vineyard, here -- Vincent didn't get people interested in mormon paladins in the wild west by saying, "who wants a game with mormon paladins in the wild west?"  He went into details, provided actual play, and showed people why they should be interested, even fascinated, with his game.

It sounds like you've written some hefty reference material for the setting; have you played it at all?  Because an Actual Play report would be an excellent place to start.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

I definitely agree with Joshua, but hold on - the real answer is indeed in your post, Luke.

It's the epic, freewheeling heroism on the one hand, and the caste system on the other. You wrote,

I like this sort of paradox. Great heroes on fantastic adventures, but with important social considerations and an exploration of how the society can be unjust or problematic while these virtuous warriors are doing great deeds. Some heroes can be from different castes and cooperate, but never be equal.

Fantastic. That's what I'm talking about, and Joshua, that's what we should be focusing on in our replies.

Luke, have you ever seen anything like that specific issue be central to a role-playing experience, before? If so, what was it like? If not, what game-experience did you have in which it seemed possible to have it, but didn't for some reason?

Best, Ron

[oreso]

I concur with Ron and Joshua, just make a game that you would like play, and chances are, other people will like the idea too. Just try to make the game so that it makes the play happen as you want.

I'm very much interested in the mythos, but i wouldnt buy a survey of it. I wouldnt even buy an orginal invented survey inspired by it. Background info is cheap, and assigning stats to it is trivially easy.
What I mean is, the rules should not just allow, they should guide, nay, even force me to feel like a Ramayanan hero. Give me a game where i can really feel my destiny becoming manifest and i care about my afterlife and i cant help but feel the strictures of my caste, give me that game, and i'll love you. What the races and gods are called is not important.

On a related note: you might wanna look at The Mountain Witch. Stuff about different castes members having to work together and people having a fate or destiny, but more importantly the rules guide you to play like a distrustful ronin with a dark past. 

EDIT: kinda superceded by Ron's post, but i'll post anyway in case you find it useful.

[Luke Fleeman]

Luke, have you ever seen anything like that specific issue be central to a role-playing experience, before? If so, what was it like? If not, what game-experience did you have in which it seemed possible to have it, but didn't for some reason?

I have seen similar things in role-playing, but I feel that they might not have been adequately explored elsewhere. Or, at least, not explored in the same manner. 

To me, you have similar experiences in some other games, where you are contrasting your own nature or deeds against the society or experiences you have. In Vampire, I am a creature of the night, at war with other creatures of the night, but struggling with the pure, inhuman nature of your condition. Or in D&D, a Paladin trying to be with a group of treasure-hungry killers while still being a good, responsible person. To me, these conflicts in ideals and actions make the best games.

And when I looked into these myths, and got the background for it all, this paradox popped up. Here, there is no inner darkness at work- these guys are quite literall the heroes, the good guys, the shining knights. However, they tolerate a society which, to my modern sensibilities, is intrinsically unfair. It seems to me that fellow adventurers from different castes might have different assumptions about the other catses once they have fought and bled together. 

And I like this exploration. I want to capture the flair of valor, virtue, and heroism that the stories provide, but there is an underlying unfairness and inequality that should be explored at the same time. I think that this conflict can form the roots of a fun game. I think players could go on these grand adventures, but return home to a restrictive society that labels them. Or that these players could try to deal with interpersonal conflicts due to caste while doing deeds that others sing songs about.

I have been able to have a similar experience. I once played a Paladin (in a D&D game), who was noble and virtuous by design. He traveled in the company of some very rough and morally-questionable (but not evil) people, and often there was conflict. This was often due to friction between their social expectations. Where they were willing to slay someone outright, or charge into battle at every oppurtunity, I was often arguing against it. I had to argue for mercy, diplomacy, compassion or the greater good, while they were very different. This expeirence is similar, because while being a hero and a good guy, my character had to struggle with the expectations of the other adventurers, or take his idealism into battles against evil. While this is not the same, the conflict between heroism and society, or virtue and expectations, is a similar one.

And I think this setting is tailor made for such explorations.

[Darcy Burgess]

Cool.  It's nice to hear some clearly articulated ideas -- I wish I could get that sort of stuff to come out of my brain.

If this were my project, the next question would be:
   What about the d20 system specifically supports those goals?
The answer to that question should be very telling.

[Josh Roby]

I'd love to hear the answer to Darcy's question.

[Luke Fleeman]

To answer the question:

Nothing in particular. I have some experience with OGL, and I think I know it best. I figured since I knew it and can work out the stuff myself, I would run with it.

However, after reading threads here and doing some tinkering, I am starting to think I would like to look elsewhere, system-wise. I am going to do some deliberation, and think about what facets of the game I want most reflected in the system, and work from there. If I can't do any better than OGL, I'll do OGL. But I'll think on it some.