The Forge and the ENnies

[Clinton R. Nixon]

The only connection between the Forge and the ENnies is a historical artifact stemming from the overlap in audience. This overlap in audience is, repeat, an artifact of the way the method of rolplaying was spread since the seventies.

I agree with Settembrini wholeheartedly. The games that the ENnies give recognition to and the games that the Indie RPG Awards traditionally give recognition to are totally separate things.

There is a problem here: "indie RPG" is a term that speaks about production methods, but now means game content and play style, which is wrong, and I'm glad to see Settembrini using "thematic roleplaying game," although I'd drop "roleplaying" right out of that phrase. So: there are some games that are self-published and are great and don't get enough recognition in the Indie RPG Awards because they are, in many ways, the Thematic RPG Awards, and I hope these RPGs start getting nominated for more ENnies, because they're great.

(Settembrini: the bit I quoted from you is so smart and on the money that I want to shake your hand.)

[Denise]

So Ron, Clinton,

I would like to open a nomination thread for judges on The Forge in the next few weeks, and encourage users to ask nominees questions in the thread.

Where would I do such a thing?  In here, under Conventions, with perhaps a notification in Publishing?

[Jason Morningstar]

Basic requirements of the judges include:
-no affiliation with an RPG publisher in the past year, nor reasonable expectation of the same over the course of the following year.  This includes writing credits, being a formally-recognized volunteer, etc.  This largely stems from the fact that these are fan awards, not industry awards, so we want the judges to be fans...

Hey Denise, I'm really glad that you're trying to find a way to make this happen.  It's a very positive development!  My first thought when I read this requirement, though,  was that finding someone in this community who meets this criteria will be difficult or impossible - the folks best qualified to participate are active independent publishers themselves (like Luke), and pretty much everybody is a volunteer helping out in some capacity. At the same time, we're all huge fans.  This may be a limiting factor.

It's funny - I recognize that we operate in a bubble to some degree, and perhaps have an inflated sense of our influence and importance as independent publishers, but I chafe at the idea of not competing directly, at being relegated to some category all our own.  Some of our products can *assuredly* compete on production quality, for example.  If designer's think they'll get a fair shake, I think they should confidently go toe to toe with other entries.  I don't feel at all like we're in the minor leagues - but we may be playing basketball to ENworld's baseball.  I hope that makes sense and does not come across as negative, because I'm absolutely on board with supporting cross-pollination.  I just see a lot of obstacles. 

[iago]

Basic requirements of the judges include:
-no affiliation with an RPG publisher in the past year, nor reasonable expectation of the same over the course of the following year.  This includes writing credits, being a formally-recognized volunteer, etc.  This largely stems from the fact that these are fan awards, not industry awards, so we want the judges to be fans...

Hey Denise, I'm really glad that you're trying to find a way to make this happen.  It's a very positive development!  My first thought when I read this requirement, though,  was that finding someone in this community who meets this criteria will be difficult or impossible - the folks best qualified to participate are active independent publishers themselves (like Luke), and pretty much everybody is a volunteer helping out in some capacity. At the same time, we're all huge fans.  This may be a limiting factor.

Yeah.  Though my first thought was "Hm, I wonder if Jeff from Sons of Kryos would be interested."

[R. Jason Boss]

Is uncompensated playtesting considered affiliation for purpose of who may or may not be a judge?  I haven't garnered any actual playtest credits in publication in a couple of years but may be doing some again in the near future less formally.

I'm mostly curious, I'm not sure I have anyone in the online community who knows me well enough to second me or what have you.  Interested though.

Jason

[Denise]

Uncredited playtesting constitutes a bit of a grey area, and is generally judged on a case-by-case basis.  If the product in question is submitted for consideration, then the answer is most likely to be no, you may not judge.  If the product isn't submitted, and if you involvement were minor, then we might say yes.

Getting a second shouldn't be too hard, I"m sure.  It's just the popularity contest that is the voting afterwards that'll be a challenge- but if you can rally your peeps here, you could go far.  Last year only 660 voters took place in the judge selection, you a dedicated Forge block could rock the vote.

If you -or anyone else reading this- are interested in running, I'd suggest putting together a little promotional blurb about yourself that includes information like how long you've been playing RPGs and what systems, any experience in judging/reviewing products, what you look for in an RPG, and what you would bring to the judging table.  We'll be posting brief descriptions of each of the nominees so voters can better familiarize themselves with the possibilities.

As an addendum to my previous post about requirements, we also need judges to be at least 18 years of age.  When we announce the opening of the nomination process, I'll be sure to post the complete rules/regulations.

Is uncompensated playtesting considered affiliation for purpose of who may or may not be a judge?  I haven't garnered any actual playtest credits in publication in a couple of years but may be doing some again in the near future less formally.

I'm mostly curious, I'm not sure I have anyone in the online community who knows me well enough to second me or what have you.  Interested though.

Jason

[R. Jason Boss]

Thank you for the information; that answers my questions.

Jason

[M. J. Young]

Basic requirements of the judges include:
-no affiliation with an RPG publisher in the past year, nor reasonable expectation of the same over the course of the following year.  This includes writing credits, being a formally-recognized volunteer, etc.  This largely stems from the fact that these are fan awards, not industry awards, so we want the judges to be fans.  Having professional credits in the past is fine, and can be quite handy, but we also don't want any potential for accusations of conflict of interest.

This bothered me, as well.

It is almost tautologous to say that Forge members are game publishers, and certainly all the prominent ones have their own games in print, and usually expect to do more in the future. I am constantly involved in working on future product. I was going to say I haven't had anything published in a few years, but that's not true--last year Legends of Alyria came out, and I wrote the Multiverser conversion rules in the appendix for that. I attend regular meetings with Valdron Inc's people, and serve on their board. I am quite obviously a publisher--but so is pretty much any prominent member here, and most of those who would not make that claim for themselves are working on getting there.

The very mission statement here is that this site exists to help independent game author/publishers get their product finished and published. How can anyone here really qualify under that statement?

Of course, I wonder whether your other judges are that much different. I don't know who they are, but have they "published" game materials on their web sites, or written articles for RPG sites or magazines? Would Johnn Four (of RoleplayingTips.com) be a publisher, given that he is constantly releasing materials useful for various, sometimes very specific, games?  How do you define "publisher" here? Or is it simply a matter of excluding anyone who is connected to a company that has games in the running?

--M. J. Young

[Dav]

Just as quick aside:  I went to the ENnie awards this year (and tried, mind you, to get a few Forgites to go as well) and had a good time, we were that loud and obnoxious table by the bar.  My note: reduce the booze prices to reduce the number of us playing the b.y.o.b. game. 

My other bit was that, to some degree, the m.c. and many of the speakers were using many in-jokes that apparently originate from some mystical ennie bbs, which is fine, but seems to invite some degree of heckling from the (admittedly) soused audience.  Also, and I realize I may be the minority here, but I feel it bears mentioning, having categories such as "best adventure" and (I cringe) "best d20 supplement/module" is a scary scary notion, right up there with listening to a game company explain rules clarifications by stating that the original concept placed "an undue burden of choice on the player".*  GRK!?

I think that the indie awards, as they stand, are great things, and to try to play "beat it to fit, paint it to match" with the Forge and ENnies is weird and unnatural.  I would rather second the previously mentioned notion of having the ENnies at x-o'clock and the Indie Awards at x+2-o'clock in the same hall.  I'd do a whole thing about ENnies as PG-13 and the Indies as R (or better), kick the kids out, slam the flasks onto the table, get a bookie to start taking wagers, and let fly with the "rougher crowd".**

Dav

*: I know that this is something of a "dead horse" subject, but d20 companies aren't designing games, they are writing new settings and quirky bits to an already-existent system... the game is already designed.  It would be like taking the body off of a car and putting a different, sportier body over the original workings and calling it automobile design... just plain wrong.

**: I know that cavorting and revelling in the "not your momma's game designers" attitude is something that is not necessarily endorsed (and even somewhat opposed) by the Forge's mission of showing the legitimacy of indie games, but, as I have mentioned before, the more accepted indie games become, the more acceptable they become, which, to my mind, is a shame.  Also, there is more to gaming and conventions than gaming and schilling... you guys (the Forge, in toto) should take a night off from gaming and be forced to go out and drink and smoke and curse and ogle women and men and specifically act as a generally ambulatory limbic region... thus, the Indie Awards as punk-rock-kickass-fun-time, complete with mandatory attendance and fun to complete the image.

[Denise]

Glad you could make it and squeeze in, Dav!

To address some of your points:

- I had no choice in the drink prices- it's the unfortunate reality of having an event at a location like the Westin.  Five dollar domestic beer, and cheese and crackers that cost $7/head.  Definitely not my first choice for venue selection for next year- especially with the whole request seating at tables for 200 people and theatre seating for an additional 100, and instead show up to find only 120 seats at tables bit.

- I totally agree with the referring-to-threads-on-ENWorld.  That sort of thing makes me cringe.  As a matter of fact, we're probably going to stop referring to people by their handles from now on.  As we move away from being an EN World-centric award, it makes less sense to anyone.

- With regards to the d20 thing, I think that d20 deserves its own category because there are inherent advantages and disadvantages in working under the OGL in both design and marketing issues.  And I agree, strict d20 products (as in the ones with the d20 on the logo that don't have character generation or levelling rules) shouldn't qualify for Best Game, because they are not complete systems.  However, I heartily endorse that games such as Mutants and Masterminds or Spycraft deserve consideration for Best Game.  Sure, they're based off the d20 system, but I challenge anyone to find a mainstream RPG that can claim 100% originality that doesn't have some basis in previous editions or products. Because of the roots of EN World (ie a d20 fan site), we'll maintain the Best d20 Award, but exclude products from competing in both it and the Best Game categories.  They can duke it out for supremacy in the Best Product category instead.

- As for the other categories, well... welcome to mainstream RPGs! 

Honestly, I'm starting to think that trying to get the Indie Awards to work with the ENnies is a losing battle.  I may simply settle with an attempt at increased co-operation between the two, doing some mutual publicity, and keep on encouraging indie publishers and fans to continue to support the ENnies by submitting product and voting for their fave judges and products.  Other suggestions on how to involve the indie publishing community are very welcome!

[Ben Lehman]

Hey, Denise--

So here's a thought.

I'm a publisher basically no matter how you slice it.  However, I'm not going to submit to the ENnie awards anytime in the near future.  This isn't because I don't like the awards, just the cost of submission (8 copies?) is too damned high for the amount of promotion I'd get even if I won.  I'd rather spend that money on food or shelter or new games.

If a publisher recuses their own games from the running, would that qualify them?  Not just not voting for their own games, but not submitting them at all.

No would seem to be the answer here, but maybe this is a course of thought we can pursue somehow.

yrs--
--Ben

[Denise]

To clarify-
It's six copies.  One for each judge, one for display purposes/fundraising.  Try not to think of the lost revenue, but of the actual cost of producing those books and shipping them.  A nomination alone brings the name of your product to thousands of RPG consumers, and is a worthwhile investment (assuming you get the nomination).

But to avoid the appearance of conflict of interest and to increase impartiality, I don't want any publisers submitting themselves for judgehood, sorry.  But I definitely encourage you to vote for your choice of judge and products!

Hey, Denise--

So here's a thought.

I'm a publisher basically no matter how you slice it.  However, I'm not going to submit to the ENnie awards anytime in the near future.  This isn't because I don't like the awards, just the cost of submission (8 copies?) is too damned high for the amount of promotion I'd get even if I won.  I'd rather spend that money on food or shelter or new games.

If a publisher recuses their own games from the running, would that qualify them?  Not just not voting for their own games, but not submitting them at all.

No would seem to be the answer here, but maybe this is a course of thought we can pursue somehow.

yrs--
--Ben